Ok, so while playing SRHK, I liked the ability to essentially buy extra essence with Karma, but didn't like some aspects of it. So, I think I figured out a way to use it in tabletop to my satisfaction.

But I fully accept I may be missing something big, so I'm throwing it out there.

First thing, a few facts -
1. using SR3 with whatever I feel like pulling in from the other versions (likely very little from 4-5)
2. players will be creating characters on a custom app which is important because maths

What I like is the ability to add a larger Karma demand compared to just pure cash (in fact offsetting the need for huge cash for a delta upgrade with the option to just increase essence for a smaller boost).

So, my main problem with the computer version was magic. It was easy for a mage to get 2 essence worth of cyber without hitting. I don't want to put in something to benefit sams that instead benefits mages by more.

The idea is to normalize the extra essence down to 6 standard and represent the increased essence instead with a % discount to the essence cost of cyber. It works with magic, and it works with any essence based calculations in the game without needing even more house rules. Sure, that would be ugly if hand calculating, but java does decimals just fine. I can even build the calculation into the display cost of the cyber instead of the players needing to try to do it on the fly.

That has 2 effects. Lets say you buy the equivalent of a full point of cyber. In the HK version, you can get a full point of cyber and still have 6 magic. With this version, that "free" essence is effectively split between the 6 real essence evenly. So the mage can take a dip into cyber and buying the essence still lets them get slightly more without hitting that second point of magic. But the Sam with .5 essence gets near full use of the extra point without his effective essence going down any further.

So, what huge, game-breaking thing am I missing?

Not helping the mundanes as much as you think while making the magic users even stronger than they already are by basically removing the one stumbling block on their way to world domination?

Magic Users, throug initiation already have a way to increase magic.
This only makes it maybe cheaper and at least easier, as Magic is tied to essence.

While the mundanes won't benefit as much, because with them getting the ressources to actually afford new and big implants is still the problem.

How? They would be spending their most in demand resource (karma) for a tiny increase in capacity.

And filling a brand new point of essence is a lot cheaper than upgrading to a higher grade and then paying to fill the newly made essence hole. The cost is strictly cheaper in terms of nuyen - upgrade+new ware vs just new ware.

En Essence point worth of 'Ware is not a tiny increase for a Magician.

How would they get a whole essence using what I described?

They would get maybe an extra quarter point of essence if they dipped for a single point of essence loss/reduced magic. Did people miss the part where the essence total is normalized to 6?

Alpha/Beta/Delta Grade is .8/.7/.5, Adapsin is .1, Compatibility is .1 and your described reduction is what exactly? Assumming from what you posted, 1 point normalized across 6 is an additional .17 Essence Reduction.

So at the most beneficial, you get .5 Delta, +1 Compatibility, +1 Adapsin, and .17 at Extra Reduction. Totally .87 Reduction in Essence Cost... Don't know about you, but if I was a Magician Sign me up... Even if you ignore the Adapsin Treatment, that is still .77 Reduction. That is a total no brainer, in my opinion...
The more you can jam into a point of Essence cost, the more the Magician will benefit.

Apes, my thought is if you want to benefit mundanes more than mages, then make it so that only those without Magic or Resonance (SR4 & 5) can benefit. This way Sammies can actually squeeze in enough cyber to be a nightmare, while not making mages even more nasty.

As for what Tymeaus Jalynsfein was saying. A mage can get a LOT of benefit from a single point of essence spent. My Chaos Medic mage can get a synaptic booster to make him a lot more worthwhile in a gunfight... and that's just the start.

I think a better solution is to make Cyberzombification reasonably accessible, like I'm talking 80K, availability 16 in 5e. Make it so that it's not available at character creation, but also make it possible to get a few games in if you are devoting money to it. Have corporate marketeers shout about how it's "The latest thing since Nanotech!" and "Cheaper than ever before!" Have the bits about astral hazing, loss of self, etc be in the fine print. Or houserule them out entirely. Of course, mages and technos are still gonna be fucked if they try it, and your shaman buddy might not like you polluting astral space, but this is a better option than essence boosts. Then you load up on a shit ton of used 'ware and don't care that your 'ware ain't fair because you now have 12 essence to spend, not 6.

Shadowrunnners should be discreet. A Cyberzombie is ANYTHING but subtle!

Also, the idea that ANY government would allow anyone to become a cyberzombie is insane. They'd stomp on that harder than the Angry Foot of God!

Cyberzombies are described in the SR4 Augmentation book as "Personal Weapons of Mass Destruction", and I agree with that.

*cough*bullshit*cough*
you can go cyberzombie without anything being visible on the outside <.<
Hell, in SR3, you could go cyberzombie with. one. single. implant. already!
And THAT was Move By Wire, completely invisible from the outside and mostly on the inside as well.
Much CHEAPER and MORE LEGAL?
Rigger Control 3. 5 Essence.
And then just Add eyes, Smartlink, some other Internals, and boom, 6 Essence spent.
Wired Reflexes 3. 5 Essence.
And then just Add eyes, Smartlink, some other Internals, and boom, 6 Essence spent.

Well, to start with, I don't think adapsin or compatibility are in SR3. But even if they were, I highly doubt the rules for percentages would involve adding them instead of multiplying.

So, really, combining all of those (even if allowed) would result in a total cost of 34.5% which would be a 65.5% reduction, not an 87% reduction like you calculate. Still large, but noticeably smaller.

And, yes, that is a lot, but that is looking at the total as a straight number instead of in comparison to what you get by adding my idea.

With 34.5 cost, you can get (this is rounding after all the calculation is done, so the total will be slightly different than if I used 34.5 which is rounded): 2.88 Essence in a 1 essence hole.

But without my idea (using only delta and the two 10% reductions), the cost is 40.5 percent of basic. Which means you can squeeze 2.47 essence in that same 1 essence hole.

So, using the best grade cyber and 2 other effects to reduce cost (both of which increase the effect of the bonus), you get an extra .41 essence. And that number already includes the effect of delta and the others - even using the best (not readily available) cyber and 2 extras to make it cheaper, this still doesn't let you add a new smartlink.

Without the 10% reductions, that goes down to .333 essence even when using delta grade - so you can get an eye upgrade or a datajack that you can't really do anything with.

I can't think of many situation where it wouldn't be preferable to just initiate again to recover the magic and spend that second point of essence on just straight adding the cyber normally, instead of spending karma and the big money and effort to get delta for everything.

Doesn't hide the fact that your aura is a literally soul-sucking black hole and you reek of blood magic, though.

Apes, you're overthinking it. Just throw in an Edge that requires one not have a Magic rating to purchase that, say, makes cyber/bio count as if it were one grade 'better' for purposes of calculating Essence cost. Call it 'Adaptable System' or something.

Done, no chance of it making uber-mages.

Indeed, neither are in SR3. But SR3 included surgical procedure options that went far beyond that ... with insanely high and thus improbable TNs ... but technically RAW ultimately allowed for 100% Essence cost reduction with a minimum Essence cost of 0.01 per implant as 0 was explicitly forbidden.



SR3 RAW wasn't precise enough to make a definite ruling either way.

I d say allow that rule for everyone but double the magic loss from cyberware. 1 pt of essence=-2 Magic.

Just make it a special quality that's incompatible with any Awakened trait.

Type J System or something - entirely incompatible with any kind of Magic or Resonance stat, but buys you a pool of "phantom" essence that your mundane character can install 'ware into without touching their original Essence.

In which book?

Cheers!

Man and Machine, Positive Option: Essence Reduction, 5% per selection. pg. 150

Thanks will check this out

... and by RAW the best surgeon you could get on perfect rolls for finding treatment would have had a skill rating of 10 which technically would have allowed him to plan and conduct a procedure that has this surgical option 10 times on his procedure list. Successfully conducting the procedure while meeting the (staged) TNs required for making those 10 Essence reductions happen is extremely unlikely but still theoretically possible via the surgeon's skills and his additional dice provided by the clinic gear and eventual enhancements that the doctor might have (ranging from Bioware like reflex recorders to expanded Adept power list for Improved Ability and/or Adept Centering): Seeing 14+ dice "explode" into TN realms of way beyond 30 isn't going to happen that often.

The rules did not prohibit the application of that Essence Reduction in addition to what the implant provided on its own ... although it's my understanding that the initial design for those surgical rules had vastly different goals compared to what ended up in the book. The M&M rules as written are a total clusterf*ck ...

I don't see how that would be particularly beneficial.

First off, I don't see why I would want a quality which you can start with as opposed to something that would be purchased/increased over time. If the point is to give mundanes/Sam something to do to with Karma that has a more direct effect instead of just allowing more breadth, that seems backwards if it's just a quality. At that point it's no different than adding biocompatibility from the later games.

And then the "phantom" essence doesn't seem to add anything significant. Getting cybered up has a cost. Not only is there a limit, but each point also worsens the magical healing targets (and a scattered few other places with 10-Essence numbers.). The way you describe it, it seems completely front loaded so there would be a huge benefit to those with only the phantom essence filled in, but then lessening benefit the more ware you have. Essentially the opposite of my goal. It would still be functional (of course), but I'm not sure what would be better about doing it that way. My point was to keep the number ranges in those instances consistent with the base rules and your version doesn't do that. Never create a need for a second house rule to fix something you broke with the first one.

Just one comment on this. You wouldn't need to see 14 dice explode, only 1 of the 14. The target for success count is set at the start. Only the open roll for highest singe TN increases per option.

It's still not likely given that the base TN for Delta is already huge - although it does create a situation where beta with good surgery may cost less essence than Delta with the exact same surgery roll. But it is slightly more likely that your post implies.

The latter part is the culprit where you actually need to see them all "explode", but not necessarily to the exact same value: It's a bit burried in the text but the whole thing combines two (or rather multiple) separate tests into one roll:

• An almost normal success test, where you have to beat the TN of the procedure itself, with a success threshold that requires you to get IIRC at least 3 successes in order to get through it without experiencing the mandatory negative options on the procedure list. Additional successes can provide the positive options if you meet the criteria for them ... which brings us to the next test type
• Something that first glance looks like an open test where the highest roll would normally determine what you get in terms of (planned) positive options. Unfortunately the TN modifiers created by each positive option explicitly demand that you meet that particular TN, then mark off that option and then increase the TN for the next option. Thus you get a kind of sequentially staged open test against a rising TN where you need dice roll results that look like:X, X, X, X+2, X+4, X+6, ... up to X+20 where X is the base TN of the procedure. You could make an argument that the TN modifier per option only applies after the option in question has been reached, slightly altering the pattern to X, X, X, X, X+2, X+4, ..., X+18 instead.

Since Delta grade procedures pretty much always have a TN of well above 6/7 all dice must explode. and a very large number of those way beyond 12, some beyond 18 and 24 and a small number can go above 30 ... and that's only if you take the most lenient interpretation as I did in my second point. I have seen people arguing that RAW technically demands all dice meeting the highest TN.

Lowering TNs for either test by performing a beta procedure in a delta clinic is certainly possible (and even advisable in terms of probability vs. gained rewards) but that by default removes the possibility of a "100%"/0.01 Essence implant

Wow. Totally missed that.

That moved those surgery rolls from "wow, that shows how you can get a lot of info from a single roll" to "ok, that's too much info to get from one roll".

As I'm sure you get, what I thought you meant was X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20,X+20...

So, it looks like the real chance is somewhere between the rule as I understood it, and the rule I thought you were describing.

Either way, it's damn near impossible.

But of course it is.
Can't have the muggles having anything nice now can we?

To be fair: Having a reasonable chance of getting implants with a total reduction of 100% with a minimum cost of 0.01 would be just as game breaking as some suggest Magic is:

Magically active characters would dig even deeper into 'ware just as any "muggle" would so nothing would change in that often discussed area of "imbalance".
In addition to that the already highly questionable concept of "cyberzombie" would become obsolete.

Well . .
Cyber-Zombie NEVER was meant as a Player-Character-Choice.
You go to 0 Essence and below, you hand over your character sheet to the GM.
Also, with Cyberzombies, you actually WANT Massive Essence Loss, because it makes them so. much. more. betterer.

Although, to get back to what I said earlier about percentages, applying them multiplicatively would result in those 10 10% reductions equaling around a 66% reduction. It's still huge, but not insane to the extent of everything costing .01.

My comment didn't refer to cyberzombies as player characters. But think of it: Would any mega really go through the troubles of creating a below 0 Essence carrier if they had a reasonable chance of creating a "full borg" with an Essence loss of 3 max (which equals 300 implants at minimum cost of 0.01 per implant)? All the stuff you could squeeze into such a "normal" implant guy would by far exceed ...



... the ultimately not that great benefits a cyberzombie can get from higher Essence loss values.

____________________



Well, the positive option says that one should apply the total of all similar adjustements as one multiple not separately ... So I guess I have to revise my initial comment: SR3 is actually pretty explicit and goes towards adding up those 10x5% bonuses with the 50% bonus of Deltaware rather than what you're calculating there.

But ultimately it doesn't matter whether it's 66%, 75% or 100%: the result would still be the same: Magic users would have a further increased incentive to get a seriously larger number of implants and making the perceived gap between mundanes and magic users even wider despite giving the mundanes a bit more to play with.

Sure there is. Their very existence fucks with mages. You can easily identify those astrally active by watching for people who start to seize when looking at them!

And within context of this SR3 labeled thread that's just bollocks. While the astral pollution from a cyberzombie will interfere with magic use to a certain extend within closer proximity there are no seizures or other directly visible indicators on the physical plane. Heck, in SR3 the cyberzombie pollution doesn't even interfere with available magic ratings.

And just as the limited gains in terms of survival via large negative Essence values the actual gains in terms of magic protection both in terms of cost and effectiveness are comparatively low.

Chances are that megas with reliable access to significant Essence reductions beyond the 50% of Deltaware would actually cyber mages and adepts "to the gills" and then let them deal with both magic and mundane dangers directly ... Still cheaper and ultimately more effective than using a blood magic ritual to create an entity that cannot be reasonably treated with magic, has extreme maintainance costs, is permanently in danger of getting lost in details and will negatively impact their own magical assets to the dame degree as they provide protection against opposing magicians.

Cyberzombies gain their negative Essence as Hardened Armor.
And get it as a direct + on their attributes as well if i remember correctly.
So, a -3 Essence Cyberzombie would have 3 points of hardened Armor and a +3 to all his attributes at once.
THAT is pretty hefty of a bonus.

So tell me: Which base attack of which typical weapon is below or equal 3 in order to get that hardened subset of the cyberzombie's armor impacting the whole damage resolution to a significant degree?!

Then tell me how far into negative Essence you want to go in order to get to hardened armor values that really matter and explain how that'll work unless you start messing with the "rules" on what can and cannot be done under SR3 ...

And once you're there tell my how that really remains significant once you consider the fact that you can put a "super-cybered" magician into a military grade security armor (which also happens to be hardened), get the additional benefits of whatever you put into him in terms of "survival hardware" plus him let him cast an armor spell upon himself? Once TNs have dropped to minimum value of 2 and there's enough BOD available it becomes a question of "insane" dice pools to even affect such a character ... and then you're playing in a gaming environment where the rules (and the game) are really no longer of concern.

I'll just repeat myself there: The opportunity cost for a cyberzombie is already highly questionable in context of normal SR rules (and fluff) but if the megas really had means to reliably get to the extreme Essence reductions that M&M surgical options do provide only in theory rather than for practical purposes?! The the concept of a cyberzombie would be obsolete

For my personnal culture, what's the explanation SR3 gives for that. The pollution is extremely limited or something?

Technically it's localized background count created by the zombie's presence ... but unless we're talking Mana Warp levels of backgroung count, i.e. 6+ outside the Gaia-sphere the background count will mainly affect astral perception and drain calculations for mages that get caught within the area of effect and has an upper limit of 5 (which by definition represents places like Auschwitz) and I can't recall cyberzombies reaching such values.*(see edit)

Earthbound background count of up to rating 5 in SR3 can - on fluff level - make mages feel uncomfortable or even sick but that's not a given ... and rule wise there are no explicit physical reactions connected to it and neither are magic ratings directly affected => A cyberzombie doesn't impact magicians to such a degree where they become easy to identify by simple physical observation as binarywraith suggested. And an astral observer who might notice "health" related reactions or other negative impacts on magic users would be able to identify them without the zombie's presence just as well because in either case he'd be assensing ...

[edit]To be more precise: A SR3 cyberzombie dynamically generates localized background count up to a value of half of his absolute Essence value rounded down. In order to reach Mana Warp levels of background count he'd need to have an Essence value of -12 or lower ... which in turn creates a survival TN for the associated procedure of 40+ and 24 for the cancer test. Overall slightly likelier than getting to the 100%/0.01 Essence implant ... but the premise of the current debate was that the rules on the additional Essence cost reduction was more readily available, i.e. supposedly has significantly lower TNs and/or less threshold problems.

Yeah, it's mostly described as being deeply unsettling for mages to look at, because it's clearly a person, yet on the Astral what should be showing their soul is a sucking black hole of negative energy twined about with chains of blood magic holding the tatters of their spirit into the body.