Just wanted a clarification. I am going to run my group in the module 'Mother of Mercy' or something like that. It will be a first adventure and I see that the lodge has 3 force 6 spirits defending it in the woods. That is NOT including the gangers in astral space and the ones nearby in physical space. I have a couple of questions if you all got time.
From looking at abilities, a Samurai using guns is pretty much a GOP candidate at this point, both useless and worthless. Assuming a spirit materializes and attacks they have natural immunity to normal weapons. Spells are going to be the choice of the day. While the Sammy can unload magazine after mag, he might as well pack a lunch and watch tv while the one mage kills everything.
Can the gangers who are projecting 'manifest' and attack the runners with spells or anything? I read and it seems that the answer is NO, but i am asking to be sure.
There are some gangers nearby in meatspace but the Sammy can easily handle those. What is going to be a real pain is the Barghest in the basement.
FEAR and HOWL seem like it can just wipe a party out while the dog uses them as chew toys. Am I reading this wrong?
Keep in mind this is a new party, freshly generated using Priority.
Full Version: Astral combat for Samurai..
Astrally projecting folks can not attack things on the physical. The only way to attack something physical is if it also has an astral presence. So dual natured critters or a ghoul or an astrally perceiving adept as examples. That sort of thing was available (channeling a spell through a foci for example) in 1st through 3rd ed but they did away with it in 4th and 5th (thankfully). So no shooting the sammy from the astral.
A barghest can be tricky but if the sammy gets imitative on it a few solid shots should do it in, especially if he has some sort of armour piercing ammo or weapon (or both). Keep in mind it is dual natured so a mage in astral space can also target the beasty, as could a spirit.
A tactic for the sammy can also be to find the meat bodies of the astrally projecting gangers and start putting rounds in heads. This kills the ganger both astrally and physically. It would also get rid of any spirits those gangers had summoned.
A barghest can be tricky but if the sammy gets imitative on it a few solid shots should do it in, especially if he has some sort of armour piercing ammo or weapon (or both). Keep in mind it is dual natured so a mage in astral space can also target the beasty, as could a spirit.
A tactic for the sammy can also be to find the meat bodies of the astrally projecting gangers and start putting rounds in heads. This kills the ganger both astrally and physically. It would also get rid of any spirits those gangers had summoned.
QUOTE (Mantis)
That sort of thing was available (channeling a spell through a foci for example) in 1st through 3rd ed but they did away with it in 4th and 5th (thankfully).
Slight correction: Grounding spells through active foci (the only thing explicitly referenced that allowed this in previous editions but more than often expanded by GM unto pretty much anything dual natured) no longer worked from 3rd edition onward not 4th.
QUOTE
Assuming a spirit materializes and attacks they have natural immunity to normal weapons.
Unless SR5 changed that and I am not aware, Immunity to Weapons is overrated. It's really more Improved Weapons Resistance, as it effectively is [F] hardened armor. That makes a spirit pretty tough, but if the Samurai packs a big gun (LMG to Panther), he still has a good chance of wasting the spirit. Also, spirits are not that stellar in close combat (unless they're fire). At least, that's what it was like in 1 through 4.
Side story: In 3rd, a player played a Night One skillmonkey (mundane, no implants, high skills and attributes), and one-shotted a F8 Blood Spirit with her Mannlicher Elephant Gun (in 3, through interesting rules design, an Elephant Gun could deal damage like a Panther, while remaining entirely open carry legal with a hunting permit). The GM was ... a bit aghast.
QUOTE
Can the gangers who are projecting 'manifest' and attack the runners with spells or anything?
No. Well, they can manifest and say something that hurts their feelings, but that's about it.
QUOTE
There are some gangers nearby in meatspace but the Sammy can easily handle those. What is going to be a real pain is the Barghest in the basement. FEAR and HOWL seem like it can just wipe a party out while the dog uses them as chew toys. Am I reading this wrong?
Yeah, that's probably the toughest enemy. Fear and Howl are really nasty if you roll badly. I recommend the runners eat something nice before the run to restore Edge. At least the sammy'll need it.
Read the rules for immunity to normal weapons -- actually what you have (roughly, I don't have the books in front of me to quote) is immunity to mundane weapons whose combined DV and AP (after counting net hits) is less than twice their force. If you exceed that, the spirit does still gets its force in automatic successes on the soak test, then rolls its body normally for further soak.
And in my printing the spirits are force 8 -- three force 8 spirits is a VERY major threat. The group that hit that in my game included a magician with a spirit ally and a summoned spirit, a gun bunny, a rigger and someone pretty handy with a pistol, and it was somewhat nip and tuck -- but the mundanes did make the difference in the end. Course they had to change to APDS ammo first.
It goes like this:
- good assualt rifle (Ares Alpha) had DV 11 and AP -2, load APDS ammo and the AP goes to -6, that adds up to 17 -- damages spirit (granted it auto soaks six points and on average soaks almost 9 points of damage)
- Big giant revolver (Ruger Super Warhawk) with DV 9, AP -1, APDS takes it AP -5, user was tossing 17 dice, took aim until a spirit had dodged two-three times in the turn, then edged the shot for something like 24 dice with exploding sixes and no limit, ended up something like seven net hits taking damage up to 16, and despite the high soak finished off a spirit that had taken a bit of damage from one of the magicians spirits.
- Rigger couldn’t hit a darn thing, but the spirits gave enough respect to the shotguns that he brought into play to dodge them -- which was key to others landing hits.
Do also note, as you read through, that some stat blocks have added together attributes and skills, I believe, while others haven’t. (i.e. otherwise multiple relatively minor ‘grunt’ magicians are running around with skills of 12)
And in my printing the spirits are force 8 -- three force 8 spirits is a VERY major threat. The group that hit that in my game included a magician with a spirit ally and a summoned spirit, a gun bunny, a rigger and someone pretty handy with a pistol, and it was somewhat nip and tuck -- but the mundanes did make the difference in the end. Course they had to change to APDS ammo first.
It goes like this:
- good assualt rifle (Ares Alpha) had DV 11 and AP -2, load APDS ammo and the AP goes to -6, that adds up to 17 -- damages spirit (granted it auto soaks six points and on average soaks almost 9 points of damage)
- Big giant revolver (Ruger Super Warhawk) with DV 9, AP -1, APDS takes it AP -5, user was tossing 17 dice, took aim until a spirit had dodged two-three times in the turn, then edged the shot for something like 24 dice with exploding sixes and no limit, ended up something like seven net hits taking damage up to 16, and despite the high soak finished off a spirit that had taken a bit of damage from one of the magicians spirits.
- Rigger couldn’t hit a darn thing, but the spirits gave enough respect to the shotguns that he brought into play to dodge them -- which was key to others landing hits.
Do also note, as you read through, that some stat blocks have added together attributes and skills, I believe, while others haven’t. (i.e. otherwise multiple relatively minor ‘grunt’ magicians are running around with skills of 12)
QUOTE (hermit @ May 9 2016, 02:27 PM) 
Unless SR5 changed that and I am not aware, Immunity to Weapons is overrated. It's really more Improved Weapons Resistance, as it effectively is [F] hardened armor. That makes a spirit pretty tough, but if the Samurai packs a big gun (LMG to Panther), he still has a good chance of wasting the spirit. Also, spirits are not that stellar in close combat (unless they're fire). At least, that's what it was like in 1 through 4.
Fx2 Hardened Armor, actually.... with 1/2 remaining Hardened Armor (After Armor Adjustment) as automatic successes on soak.
QUOTE (Betx @ May 9 2016, 09:51 PM)
Read the rules for immunity to normal weapons -- actually what you have (roughly, I don't have the books in front of me to quote) is immunity to mundane weapons whose combined DV and AP (after counting net hits) is less than twice their force. If you exceed that, the spirit does still gets its force in automatic successes on the soak test, then rolls its body normally for further soak.
And in my printing the spirits are force 8 -- three force 8 spirits is a VERY major threat. The group that hit that in my game included a magician with a spirit ally and a summoned spirit, a gun bunny, a rigger and someone pretty handy with a pistol, and it was somewhat nip and tuck -- but the mundanes did make the difference in the end. Course they had to change to APDS ammo first.
It goes like this:
- good assualt rifle (Ares Alpha) had DV 11 and AP -2, load APDS ammo and the AP goes to -6, that adds up to 17 -- damages spirit (granted it auto soaks six points and on average soaks almost 9 points of damage)
- Big giant revolver (Ruger Super Warhawk) with DV 9, AP -1, APDS takes it AP -5, user was tossing 17 dice, took aim until a spirit had dodged two-three times in the turn, then edged the shot for something like 24 dice with exploding sixes and no limit, ended up something like seven net hits taking damage up to 16, and despite the high soak finished off a spirit that had taken a bit of damage from one of the magicians spirits.
- Rigger couldn’t hit a darn thing, but the spirits gave enough respect to the shotguns that he brought into play to dodge them -- which was key to others landing hits.
Do also note, as you read through, that some stat blocks have added together attributes and skills, I believe, while others haven’t. (i.e. otherwise multiple relatively minor ‘grunt’ magicians are running around with skills of 12)
And in my printing the spirits are force 8 -- three force 8 spirits is a VERY major threat. The group that hit that in my game included a magician with a spirit ally and a summoned spirit, a gun bunny, a rigger and someone pretty handy with a pistol, and it was somewhat nip and tuck -- but the mundanes did make the difference in the end. Course they had to change to APDS ammo first.
It goes like this:
- good assualt rifle (Ares Alpha) had DV 11 and AP -2, load APDS ammo and the AP goes to -6, that adds up to 17 -- damages spirit (granted it auto soaks six points and on average soaks almost 9 points of damage)
- Big giant revolver (Ruger Super Warhawk) with DV 9, AP -1, APDS takes it AP -5, user was tossing 17 dice, took aim until a spirit had dodged two-three times in the turn, then edged the shot for something like 24 dice with exploding sixes and no limit, ended up something like seven net hits taking damage up to 16, and despite the high soak finished off a spirit that had taken a bit of damage from one of the magicians spirits.
- Rigger couldn’t hit a darn thing, but the spirits gave enough respect to the shotguns that he brought into play to dodge them -- which was key to others landing hits.
Do also note, as you read through, that some stat blocks have added together attributes and skills, I believe, while others haven’t. (i.e. otherwise multiple relatively minor ‘grunt’ magicians are running around with skills of 12)
Thanks, I am still doing the math but lets try his troll with 14str, 14body bonelaced using a combat axe. His blades skill is 6 his agility is 5.
how does the troll hit the spirit and do dmg. Also does the spirit regen all the dmg on the next turn or is it possible to whittle the critter down?
Unless it has the regeneration power, it does not regenerate.
QUOTE (Larsenex @ May 9 2016, 02:53 PM)
Thanks, I am still doing the math but lets try his troll with 14str, 14body bonelaced using a combat axe. His blades skill is 6 his agility is 5.
how does the troll hit the spirit and do dmg. Also does the spirit regen all the dmg on the next turn or is it possible to whittle the critter down?
how does the troll hit the spirit and do dmg. Also does the spirit regen all the dmg on the next turn or is it possible to whittle the critter down?
An average force 8 spirit will have 16 dice to dodge(not exact due to each spirit varying attributes, so probably closer to 18, but this is a theoretical generic spirit), Troll has a 11. Right off the bat, this isn't an impossible hit for the troll, especially if he charges. However, troll is not alone, he has a few allies willing to help him, who each have made attacks against the spirit since its last turn. Each of these attack give a -1 to the spirit's attempt to dodge until the start of the spirit's next turn. We will say it is a team of five, and three of them have attacked the spirit already, giving the spirit a -3. Now when the troll charges, he has equal dice to the spirit. If he gets any buffs from drugs, his mage, or other situational modifiers, he has better than even odds to hit the spirit.
Assuming the troll gets one net hit, his axe does strength(so 14) plus 5 plus 1 net hit damage, for a total of 20. Normally a spirit of force 8 has 16 hardened armor to mundane weapons, however, the axe has -4 AP, which brings this down to 12. 20 is greater than 12, so it doesn't automatically resist it, but instead gets 6 net hits, then rolls 12 plus body(8 on our theoretical generic spirit) for a total of 20 dice. An average hits on 20 dice is around 7, so the spirit would likely take 7(20 - 6 - 7) damage.
If anyone spots a problem with this, please point it out.
QUOTE (MrGlee @ May 10 2016, 12:17 AM)
An average force 8 spirit will have 16 dice to dodge(not exact due to each spirit varying attributes, so probably closer to 18, but this is a theoretical generic spirit), Troll has a 11. Right off the bat, this isn't an impossible hit for the troll, especially if he charges. However, troll is not alone, he has a few allies willing to help him, who each have made attacks against the spirit since its last turn. Each of these attack give a -1 to the spirit's attempt to dodge until the start of the spirit's next turn. We will say it is a team of five, and three of them have attacked the spirit already, giving the spirit a -3. Now when the troll charges, he has equal dice to the spirit. If he gets any buffs from drugs, his mage, or other situational modifiers, he has better than even odds to hit the spirit.
Assuming the troll gets one net hit, his axe does strength(so 14) plus 5 plus 1 net hit damage, for a total of 20. Normally a spirit of force 8 has 16 hardened armor to mundane weapons, however, the axe has -4 AP, which brings this down to 12. 20 is greater than 12, so it doesn't automatically resist it, but instead gets 6 net hits, then rolls 12 plus body(8 on our theoretical generic spirit) for a total of 20 dice. An average hits on 20 dice is around 7, so the spirit would likely take 7(20 - 6 - 7) damage.
If anyone spots a problem with this, please point it out.
Assuming the troll gets one net hit, his axe does strength(so 14) plus 5 plus 1 net hit damage, for a total of 20. Normally a spirit of force 8 has 16 hardened armor to mundane weapons, however, the axe has -4 AP, which brings this down to 12. 20 is greater than 12, so it doesn't automatically resist it, but instead gets 6 net hits, then rolls 12 plus body(8 on our theoretical generic spirit) for a total of 20 dice. An average hits on 20 dice is around 7, so the spirit would likely take 7(20 - 6 - 7) damage.
If anyone spots a problem with this, please point it out.
^^^ Thank you! I read that hardened armour is 'Essence' so if the spirit is force 8, isnt its essence also 8? What am I missing?
QUOTE (Larsenex @ May 10 2016, 09:14 AM)
^^^ Thank you! I read that hardened armour is 'Essence' so if the spirit is force 8, isnt its essence also 8? What am I missing?
That is correct, but its twice essence, not just essence.
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