I created a set of rules that are designed to play fast and be fully compatible with SR5. It's a lighter set of rules that borrows heavily from Powered by the Apocalypse and even more heavily from Shadowrun 5th Ed. (in fact, you can't play it without at least the core rule book). I called it Simsense because I'm terrible at coming up with good titles.

If you want to read it, it's on my Shadowrun Resources site, or use the direct link (EDIT: which works now).

Before any drama happens, I want to point out that I already know about Shadowrun: Anarchy, and this game isn't that game. In fact, I pitched an earlier version of this game back in 2015, but never heard back on it. I had been puttering around with Simsense when Jason told me he was looking for a narrative set of rules for Shadowrun. I showed the early version to him and told him that I was already planning on putting out there as a Shadowrun fan. As far as I know, everybody's chill about it.

If you read it, I welcome your input, ideas, corrections, sticks, stones, and comments.

Thanks!

Cool, will try and have a look at this later today

Edit: Just a quick followup question.

Your success table is as follows:

6 or more hits: You completely succeed with your action.
3–5 hits: You get success at a cost, an unpleasant choice, or a partial success.
1–2 hits: You glitch, and something bad happens, but on the bright side, you get 1 Edge back.
0 hits: You critically glitch, and something really bad happens, but you get all your Edge back.

Just to be clear are you still using just 5&6 on a d6 for hit?

So if we look at a Street Sammie from core with 5 agility and 5 Automatics he is throwing 10 dice, which on average is going to be 3 hits before considering things like aiming/smartlinks/etc..
sort of on the low end of the 3-5 hits area and fairly small chance of making 6 hits. Seems a bit subpar for the archetype operating within his focus.

Taking a look at a not as combat proficient runner like the Decker who is forced to use a gun.
With 2 Agility and 4 Auto he is only throwing 6 dice so average is 2 hits so is glitching pretty much most of the time he even touches the weapon.
Now I realize the Decker should not be sharpshooting in the same league as the sammie, but when your average comes out a glitch, this seems a bit too glitch prone.
And remember this is even before considering your addition of Difficulty/Drek.

I suspect you are suggesting a Edge-dependant game because I can see players having to pop Edge pretty often so maybe this is as intended given you have a fair Edge return mechanic with the low hit rolls.

Perhaps if you allow 4-6 on the d6 to count as a hit, like the optional rule back in 4th did, this would move the decker up into the bottom end of the 3-5 hits range on average while still having a fair chance of glitching.
Meanwhile the Sammie using the 4-6 option averages at 5 hits putting him at the upper end of the 3-5 hits range with a very good chance of getting the 6 hits which fits as he should be making the tougher shots more often.

Still reading through it, so I may be missing a point, but is certainly interesting.

I agree with your maths, and I did it on purpose. =i)

The math in most PbtA games set it up so that your competent starting character is going to hit that partial success spot most of the time, with complete success being the high-end outlier. I, too, thought this was odd until I actually played Dungeon World. The partial success is a powerful narrative tool, keeping the action flowing while still allowing players to have impact on the scene. In DW, even when you achieve mastery, nearly half of your rolls still hit that middle ground, and it's a Good Thing IMHO.

Fast forward from my first time playing DW to the first playtests of Simsense. In those, you only needed four hits for a complete success. The game was narratively kinda dull compared to the DW session we had just finished, and I had to admit that my numbers weren't working. So I did some math and came up with a value between 5 and 6, and since there's been a Rule of Six in SR since 1989, I went with six hits.



Possibly. We were popping edge only outside of our bailiwicks, when that under-proficient roll came up.



Like I said somewhere, I only had one playtest group. If you put some play time in and it turns out that's the way to go, definitely let me know. Thanks!

Could you maybe give an example or two of how a "partial success, unpleasant choice, or success at a cost" would play out? This can be read as "glancing hit doing half damage", "either hit and hit your friend behind too or miss", or "you hit him but your gun explodes, full damage to both of you."

Also, at a pool of 10, glitches seem pretty likely and critical glitches quite likely. I'm not a fan of that, I have to say. It's one of several things I thoroughly detest about D&D. You're supposed to play competent people, after all. Not Mr. Bean.

I agree with Sendaz on the maths, it seems way off. I have not playtested it, but considering the dice pool in my group atm is around 6-10, it would lead to me having to invent drek all the time and the players getting frustrated that nothing they tried had a good chance of success. 0 hits being critical glitch would mean many players would not even try to do anything except easy tasks that succeeds automatically.

It somewhat reminds me of old school Warhammer, where most people had between 25 and 40 in any attribute in the beginning, which also was there % chance of succeeding at anything. This version is far more punishing though, as instead of simply failing, drek hits the fan every time.

If you apply the old rule of six to every dice roll it could almost work for competent shadowrunners with dice pools between 12-16, as then they have a decent chance of getting 6 his, but are also very likely to fail (and it's quite possible to get 0 hits even with these dice pools). Far more likely than having more than half the pool turn up as 1s.

I have never played Dungeon World, so maybe I need to sneak a look at this as it may give some insight into what you are aiming for.


Given that you wiped out dice modifiers, I suspect players will fall back on edge a lot more.
Though if Rule of 6 is standard across the board that does help a little slipping in an occasional extra hit so getting better shot at the 3-5 range. Still feel hitting via 4-6 on a d6 may be necessary.
Speaking of removing dice modifiers, doesn't that sort of render things like smarklinks semi-obsolete? I mean sure it can still feed data and help you spot targets, but the bonus to hit was nice.

Away from group at the moment, but number crunching some scenarios in my head.
Still trying to come to grips with the CUPS and all it can entail.

Speaking of hit ranges... is some of the 1-2 hits results switched with the 0 hit results?

For example:
Player: “I use my Rotodrone to swing across the gap.”
GM: “Roll Pilot Aircraft + Reaction.”
6+ hits: “You make it across the gap, your Rotodrone bobs merrily behind you.”
3-5 hits: “You almost make it across, and now you’re hanging on the other roof by your fingertips.”
1-2 hits: “Your weight is too much for the drone, and you find yourself slowly sinking to the street below.”
0 hits: “You make it across, but not before tearing part of the drone’s cooling system. One of its rotors locks up, and it goes into a flat spin as it plummets to the pavement and shatters into a million pieces.”

1-2 hits has you fall to make it across and settling to ground below... so pretty much a (safe) fail.
However the 0 Hits still has you succeed in crossing but at the cost of the drone aiding you, so it definitely shows critical glitch(drone loss) however you still actually succeeded in the attempt (swinging across) while the suggested result for actually getting 1-2 hits has you fail to get across at all.

Likewise the spellcasting example shows us:
Player: “I create a diversion by casting Chaotic World into the center of the mall.”
GM: “Roll Spellcasting + Magic.”
6+ hits: “Pandemonium reigns. You feel confident that nobody will notice your team for a while. Resist Drain.”
3-5 hits: “You distract everybody nearby, but attract the attention of a group of security guards up on the food court balcony. Resist Drain.”
1-2 hits: “Your omae stumbles into you as you finish, and the spell goes off on your team. Through the chaos of it all, a group of HTR officers just going off shift wander over to see what the problem is. Resist Drain.”
0 hits: “Your mentor spirit chooses this time to get back at your for the off-color joke you made at its expense the other day. Resist Drain, but increase the DV by 6. Oh, and your spell is working. For now.”

Again, you have the 0 Hit example still succeed in hitting the targeted area, granted at a heavy cost, while actually scoring a 1-2 hits ends in a partial fail for the original effort (hitting own group).

It just seems odd that the two examples have 0 hits yielding more of a success so makes for a very uneven fail compared to the 1-2 hits.

Sendaz, I think the document said that smartlink bonus and possibly specialization bonus still applies, but that situational dice pool bonuses and penalties are removed.

So mr street sam could have skill 5 + agy 5 + specialziation 2+ smartlink 2 = 14 dice. That's actually a lot better than 10, which is why in my own game I have removed spec. bonus and only allow dice bonus from implants costing essence or from spells/power point investment.

Yeah I spotted that now in the gear section at the end.

So Sammie is averaging 4 hits, allowing for Rule of 6 so 2 of those were probably 6's and thus roll again, but on the reroll you are not really going to get another hit on the average from those 2.

So let's apply similar to the decker.

Assuming the Decker at least gets the smarklink (not giving him specialization as his deck is his weapon of choice) so he gets 8 dice now (2 agility + 4 auto +2 for smartlink) so is averaging 3 hits so at least he is not non-stop glitching, plus with Rule of 6 may pull off another hit, but can still be a hazard at times.

Now lets run it again with the optional Hits on 4-6 on a d6 I suggested.

Sammie throwing 14 dice averages 7 hits, Rule of 6 in play would also mean 3 possible 6's so at least edit: one two more hit on average for a final of 9 hits.
So baring increased difficulty situations should mostly pretty much own combat wise with the occasional awkward moments when the dice leave him in the 3-5 range.
Probably won't see a glitch or 0 hit.

Decker throwing 8 dice average 4 hits, edit:with rule of 6 meaning probably 2 6's from which he should pull off one more hit, so fares a bit better than before and isn't actively shooting himself or his teammates all the time
So the hits on 4-6 on a d6 sounds good at first, and works alright for the less than 10 dice bunch, but doesn't scale up well in this situation.

Rule of 6 in play along with reasonable modifiers does seem to help, but the average unaugmented or otherwise non-specialized mook/normal joe is still pretty stuffed unless they pop Edge to help.

Which is not necessarily a problem, steamrolling mooks is a thing, just trying to get a feel for what Aaron is aiming for.

It definitely feels like this can work for a more developed character, so like Chargen +bonus points or Primer Runner type, but street gang level is pretty much a suicide run because your more likely to off youself or your team than the actual opposition.

Edit P.S. :On the plus side, Beats seems interesting, but could you give us an example of one your playtest fights/actions using beats just so we are on the same page?

Yeah, I don't really want a system that only works for the super-specialized. SR4 had some issues there already (low dice pools had too great chance of glitching). I prefer the system actually allow normal people to succeed at normal tasks (that can still fail on a good day). Also, I personally prefer to be able to roll some dice now and then as a GM.

Then again, kudos for trying to make a system that simplifies and speeds up Shadowrun-style play, an alternate system for those disliking simulationist rules.

Well Normal people doing normal tasks would probably come under Light Difficulty and not even need to roll.

I would assume most things Runner's do is usually under less than ideal conditions or pushing the envelope so they get the Moderate setting.

It is interesting trying to sit down and think about what do we really need and what can we just dump and I have to admit I probably could not pare it down so much, kudos to Aaron for trying to streamline this.

A normal ganger who tries to shoot an opposing ganger who is also trying to shoot him, in daylight, at 10 paces, with no cover. It's not brain surgery, but normal people can and will fail miserably at this from time to time, and also quite often manages it just fine. So either this becomes automatic (makes little sense), or it becomes practically impossible (makes even less sense).

Situation: Ganger has 5 dice to shoot with, as he has only trained a bit with the handgun. He needs 6 hits. This is impossible, so the best he can is 5 hits, which means he succeeds but at a cost, maybe he is also shot himself, or almost kills some bystanders. More likely, he gets 1-2 hits, which means that the shooter gets shot himself... erh what? In this case, whoever shoots first fails. Now I will assume that the answer to this is that NPCs dont roll dice, thus the GM simply decides who wins the shootout however he thinks is most reasonable or fitting to the story. But it also shows the system is rigged against the Runners, and you need to crunch the numbers a lot to actually be able to do much good in whatever you try to do, while well-rounded characters are completely useless as they not only fail at what they do, but also pulls the drek down.

So yeah, this needs a lot of tweaking to work well over time, or a very masochistic group (I have played with such).

Well, yeah. This is why I felt it wasn't much use to me, as a system. Like I said, this would get Slapstickrun. And no, I don't think constant failure or near-failure contributes positively to collaborative storytelling, its novelty would run out fast and it would only serve to annoy players whose characters seem as competent as Mr Bean at best. Definitly not for everyone.

I thought I had given an example or two in the Dice Pool and Result Examples (or whatever I called it). I think the examples you give are perfectly valid examples, too. Narrative games give the GM lots of options, and I tried to emulate that.

Thanks!

A couple of thoughts.

Sendaz, the SR5 Rule of Six doesn't apply in Simsense, but you're right about when you roll. There's a fair bit less rolling in Simsense than in base SR5. Generally, you only pick up dice when something is dangerous, or the consequences might be interesting. Normal people can perform normal tasks without touching high-impact plastic. For example, a street samurai would have little problem dropping a half-dozen Professional Rating 0 thugs:

Street Sam: (picking up dice) "I attack the gang of TerraFirst! thugs."
GM: "Put the dice down and tell me how they die."

Also, the hits chart doesn't say "fail" at any level. Certainly failure is an option for the GM (failing qualifies as "bad"). So it's possible to succeed and get drek at the same time. I did this in purpose because I really like the way that in SR5 you can succeed and still glitch (and I liked it so much I expanded it to critical glitches, too).

Incidentally, I'm glad you brought up this last part. I've added a note to clarify failure in the next draft--it's right between "Revise the Paragraph That was Supposed to be Removed" and "Point Out That Karma is Earned the Same Way as SR5." =i)

Let's be nerdy with that 8-die decker for a second. As I type this sentence, I'm not trying to make a point because I don't know what I'm going to find when I start adding up the probabilities--I'm working through this too.

So let's replace the number of hits on the chart with probabilities and see what happens. (I'm cribbing from Simantic's site for this.)

0.020: Full success (that's right between 2σ and 3σ, let's call it rare)
0.512: CUPS (about half the time)
0.429: Drek (less than half the time)
0.039: Serious Drek (more likely than a full success, but still rare)

That curve is reminiscent of a FATE spread for a character at a novice level, to me anyway. It's also similar to a D&D 5e player without proficiency hitting a target with a low AC. What I find most compelling about the spread above is that while FATE or D&D is just pass/fail, the player picking up the dice is aware that they've got a 50/50 chance of succeeding, but there's more than merely pass/fail riding on it. I like RPGs that can create tension.

In SR5, wouldn't that decker be rolling 2.67 hits on average? Is that enough to hit more than half the time? Shadowrun has so many different modifiers (most of them negative), it's hard to come up with a general case.

Okay, I could geek out about this kinda thing all day. Thanks for the kudos, folks!

I do like Rule of 6 though, takes me back to my old D&D days when rolling a 20 was magic.
Less dice is nice, but there should still be a place for sexy stacks of sixes.


It is what qualifies for the various Difficulties for Runners I guess I am trying to wrap my head around.
Also sometimes the Action is singular but in the example above an Action can also be plural-esque or encompass more than what a single IP might do in the regular game.

Fair enough, we don't necessarily fail, but we may experience what some may call a Significantly UnFortunate or Fiendish End Results (SUFFER).

cool... look forward to that.


You are correct that the decker wouldn't be hitting all that often, but then the chances of glitching is still pretty even between the two styles I guess.
Still just feels funny.
But as you said, you are using the glitches to work into the narrative, so its more a feature than a bug.


Oh jeez, you invoked FATE, which means TJ will soon be here.
Actually would be good if he chimed in on this as this as this would probably be something he could grasp better than me.



By all means geek out
It all helps fix the image in our heads.

Ok, I think I see where you’re going with this. Every PC gets the Truly Badass Advantage for free. To wit:

Truly Badass (Advantage)
You are the shape emerging from the flaming wreck, the specter of justice, the silent killer, the daring pilot, the suave agent. You're a badass, and every ounce of confidence is justified.

This advantage represents the many perks of being a cinematically-competent individual, and falls somewhere between a special kind of Luck and a special kind of Charisma. The GM should require that any character purchasing the Truly Badass advantage be able to back it up with real ability – the Truly Badass are at the top of their field: healthy, assured, and capable of getting the job done (whatever the job might be).

Important to many facets of the truly badass is the "Scrub" – any character with no real identity, unworthy as foes. Nameless thugs are scrubs. Generic congressmen wandering through a crowd scene are scrubs. Almost all security guards are scrubs. If the GM has assigned the character a motive that extends beyond a single scene, he probably isn't a scrub.

The many facets of the Truly Badass:

If it isn't important, you can just kill it: That's without a die-roll of any kind. By taking a one-second Attack maneuver, any scrub becomes dead. Or they can become unconscious or maimed, if you feel like it. They must be within reach (or yards equal to your DX, for ranged weapons). Characters or foes of significance (GMs discretion) are immune to this. If you have multiple attacks you can make multiple kills.

If it's weaker than you, it's scared: Crowds of scrubs will part to let you pass. Furthermore, they must make a Will roll in order to attack you.

If it's recognizable, you recognize it: If you have Driving skill, you can identify a model of sports car by the purr of the engine. If you have Guns skill, you can identify a model of pistol by the sound of the safety releasing. If you have Savoir-Faire skill, you know an Armani on sight, and so on. This requires an IQ roll.

If you want to be there, you are: In an action scene, when nobody is looking, you seem to move like a ghost, appearing out of nowhere. You may use a Move maneuver to get anywhere in a single turn (into an air-vent, on top of an elevator, beneath a stairway), silent and undetected, provided it is within [Move] yards, and you are unobserved. No die-roll is needed (see the opening scenes of The Professional for this).

If you want to be noticed, you will be: When you decide to be conspicuous, you are. Crowded rooms will hush slightly when you enter, and people will pay attention. Nobody will forget you.

If it's mechanical, it likes you: Your motorcycle can explode, but it never breaks down. Your gun can run out of ammo, but it never jams. Your laptop can be fragged by an antitank weapon fired through the window, but you don't experience irritating system-crashes. You take great care of your equipment, and it never fails you in any mundane way. This doesn't protect you from the failures of experimental equipment.

If you play, you win: You can never lose a Quick Contest with a scrub – the dice need not be rolled. You just win. Likewise, any skill roll made against a scrub will also succeed – you will automatically Fast-Talk them, Seduce them, Intimidate them, and so on.

Note that while this advantage is useful for sweeping aside the rabble (and speeding play), it should be used to enhance roleplaying, not to sidestep it. Saying "I kill the twerp with the Beretta pointed at me" isn't enough; the player must always describe his Badass exploits for the amusement of those at the gaming table. "I flip the Beretta's muzzle back into his gawping mouth and squeeze his hand on the trigger" is much more amusing.

I'm 100% with you on this one. One of the most awesome parts of SR1 was re-rolling all those 6's to see how high we could get. But my design document calls for minimizing task resolution and focusing on the narrative. Exploding dice double (triple, quadruple, etc.) the time it takes to roll dice, so it had to go.


True, and that deserves to be addressed. No promises, this is just a hobby for me. =i)


OH MY GOD THAT IS AMAZING. Can I steal that acronym?


You've put your finger on it. A glitch in Simsense isn't necessarily as bad as a glitch in SR5. It might be better to take out the terminology (which would make me sad, but games should be designed with the wicked mercilessness of a pro MtG champion) and leave it with drek, although I like the idea of obscuring the term "drek" from players. Glitches (and drek) can represent you failing and your opponent succeeding, wrapping two rolls (four tests) up into a single task resolution.

So yeah, different.


Yeah, but I should really be prepping for my game tomorrow. All I've got is outlines right now, and I need to scribble down stat blocks and sketch some maps. Yes, I appreciate the irony.


THAT IS UNBEARABLY COOL! Can I steal that too?

Er ... I mean ... yeah, more or less. If it's a foregone conclusion, why waste time with the dice?

LOL. S. John Ross came up with that for GURPS in the late 1990's, and that link's from his Gunmetal Blue page that he's been kind enough to leave up over the years.

So I guess you'll have to ask him if you can steal it.

But as soon as I saw your example, I immediately thought of his "Beyond the Grip of Realism" page for cinematic Advantages (Qualities in SR terms).

Yeah, I can see that is necessary if we are going to streamline and cut out the fatty bits, no matter how tasty they might be.


Fair enough. Plus when Anarchy comes out, even if it that one doesn't do well, it may provide some more fodder to adapt this or vice versa.


Please feel free.
Even if the players don't end up deep in the DREK, you may still make them SUFFER.

I think the tricky part with the 0-2 hits range is when does the desired action itself succeed and when do they not, before considering other effects.
Because again we see a 0 hit result that still 'succeeded' in the original desired action (swinging across on the drone) but at a significant cost (loss of drone).
Meanwhile the 1-2 hit range did not succeed at the original desired action (person ended up drifting down to the ground) which to be fair would be considered sort of a fa-- errr... SUFFER.
Especially if they are drifting down into the Fenrir wolf pen ala Wiley E Coyote style.

Again the Narrative is needed here to step in and keep the result in line with the story, but it can be a bit of pressure for a newer GM to be consistent in determining effects.

*Flash of Light and Smoke*
Who hath summoned me thus? Taste my Wrath and.... oh, its just Sendaz.
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It does appear to be very FATEesque... Not sure I like the implementation quite yet, I am still muddling through the data (Not sure that I am on board with the dice mechanic). Like Aaron, I do tend to like the narrative that is generated; though in FATE it is handled a bit better, in my opinion, but that may just be because I play a lot of FATE and I am just starting to get into the differences that Simsense brings. If I had my druthgers, I would just port the world whole hog into the FATE and use that system; it would not be all that difficult, in the long run, but it would take some time. Simsense seems to be a good compromise.

I would also like to see how Shadowrun Anarchy is being implemented.

Real quick, because I'm totally not at work. I'm want you to know how much I respect you, TJ, because I'm about to disagree with you. =i)

I like PbtA more than FATE (which I keep calling FUDGE which should tell you when I started playing it) because I like PbtA's "you succeed but ..." mechanic. You can do that in FATE, too, but it's not really as built into the system. Come to think about it, you can do that with D&D, SR5, GURPS, or any number of other games, but most games only have a pass/fail mechanic.

I like SR5 more than FATE because I like the distribution better. FATE has a very normal curve with a narrow deviance. Shadowrun has a normal distribution, but that positive skew brings the possibility of a phenomenal roll to the table, and I really like that.

Also I like short, quick dice rolls. When you make a FATE roll, you need to scan, count, and add twice. Shadowrun dice just need to be counted. It's trivial, I know, but I'm a nerd.

That's just my 2¥. I'd love to hear what you (and y'all) have to say if you get time to peruse.

Awesome Aaron, Thanks...
Keep up the amazing work that you do.

Still reading through Simsense.

FATE has come a long way since FUDGE...

Just a Note... FATE/FATE Core/FATE Accelerated has actually built the "Success... But" mechanic into the framework now, and it tends to skew towards success.
Add twice? Not sure what you mean. Base +/- roll and compare. With Unopposed rolls, it is just Base +/- Roll, how did you do?

Roll dice, scan for –, scan for +, add negative and positive results together, add that result to stat. Or group each + with a –, remove the groups and add the result, which I suppose most people do, but it's the same number of operations.

Again, I'm a nerd. =i)


It was my understanding that FATE isn't so much "success ... but" as it is "success ... and." SR5 has that as a guideline when you get 4+ hits more than you need. D&D 5e has that as a rule for attack rolls, but only as guidelines for other rolls. None of the three have a "success ... but" mechanic.

I suppose another way to look at the "success ... but" mechanic is as a shortcut for the GM picking an action and rolling dice by combining the two into an action-reaction beat. A result of 6+ hits can be seen as "I succeed wildly and you don't," a 3–5 as "I succeed and so do you," or "I fail and so do you," or "I kinda succeed a bit but you fail," a 1–2 as "I fail and you don't," and 0 as "you succeed, I fail, and something goes terribly wrong for me." I'm not sure how accurate this is because I only just thought of it now.

Thanks!

Ahh, I see what you mean... I do that by rote and it is nigh instantaneous for me, so, I tend to not count that as an action... I too am a Nerd, as well as a Geek and possibly a Dork.




Makes sense... I think.
Like I said, FATE has gone through some changes over the last few years.

Still on fence with the Simsense set... I will have to see it a bit in action, I think. Thanks for Sharing.

I'm working on v2, and I'm adding an Acknowledgement section, because nothing is created in a vacuum, and I believe in credit where credit is due.

If you've contributed to this thread so far and would like to appear in the Acknowledgements under a different name than your Dumpshock handle, send me a PM.

If you've contributed to this thread so far and don't want to appear in the Acknowledgements at all, you should probably send me a PM or risk being thanked by me in writing. =i)

Thanks!

I apologize for missing this question like two weeks ago. I hate falling into the Internet Trap of skimming instead of reading.

There are examples a-plenty in the document. Even more in v2.


This version of a glitch isn't quite the same as in the base game. That said, it may need better tuning, which is why I'm trying to put it in front of more eyeballs (and maybe even get more people testing it).

Thanks!

A quick update about an update.

The document linked in the OP has been updated and now features more examples, better wording, more explanations about stuff, fewer edge cases (I hope), and an acknowledgement section that I hope will continue to grow with more feedback and suggestions.

Thanks!