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Adhoc
Okay, I need to share this with you:

My players was hired by Tamanous (the players have flexible ethics). A local company had gotten the municipal contract to rid the local bad neighbourhood of corpses and Tamanous didn't like it – they needed the meat for ghouls.

So they hired the players to find out what the company did with the corpses – to see if they maybe could cut a deal ( : aka fake the funerals and bring us the bodies). It turns out that a master shedim was gating in shedim to create an army of walking dead for a sinister, currently unrevealed purpose.

The players had an idea for a business: ghouls need human flesh for at least one meal pr. day (Dietary requirement: metahuman flesh).

A shedim is a spirit possesing a corpse – making it permanent (Immunty to Age). It also has regeneration. Depeding on how you interpret it, this means that limbs grow out again in a few seconds, when they are cut of – leaving you with a severed human limb.

Now a severed human limb is fine dinning for a ghoul. So why not take control of a few shedim-possseded body, put them in a machine that cuts their limbs of a regular intervals – and sell the flesh to ghouls? And if the dead body was donated by the owner before death, it would even by morally justifiable.

Could it work? What could possibly go wrong?

(We did a lot calculations on the whole thing – number of times you can cut the various limbs of, how much meat is on the various body parts, how much meat does a ghoul require pr day).

/A.
KCKitsune
Fine until the Master Shedim gets out and then your players are going to be hunted until the end of time.
binarywraith
Depending on how you interpret the dietary needs of ghouls, it likely wouldn't work. The whole point of their need for flesh is Essence, and a shedim-occupied corpse has been dead far too long to still have trace Essence (which IIRC lasts 24-48 hours).
Tecumseh
My understanding mirrors binarywraith's. Ghouls can eat other (raw) things, but they need metahuman flesh to live. It's not the flesh itself that's important but the trace Essence that remains. Even if the shedim are regenerating the meat, I wouldn't allow them to regenerate the Essence.

I think one of the earlier editions suggested that the Infected need 5% of their body weight in ____ (bones, blood, whatever the specific species needs) every week. Not too bad for the smaller Infected, but tougher for your dzoo-noo-quas and fomóraigs.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 22 2016, 04:01 PM) *
Depending on how you interpret the dietary needs of ghouls, it likely wouldn't work. The whole point of their need for flesh is Essence, and a shedim-occupied corpse has been dead far too long to still have trace Essence (which IIRC lasts 24-48 hours).

And I've contested this as making no sense, regardless of what the canon rules say. You might recall we had quite the debate on this subject recently here.
binarywraith
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jun 23 2016, 01:42 PM) *
And I've contested this as making no sense, regardless of what the canon rules say. You might recall we had quite the debate on this subject recently here.


And as we've said before, if you're going to houserule it, why bother with the question? Just decide how you want to do it in your game and do that.

It doesn't really and any value to a question of rules-as-written theory to state you houserule it differently because reasons.

QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Jun 23 2016, 01:04 PM) *
My understanding mirrors binarywraith's. Ghouls can eat other (raw) things, but they need metahuman flesh to live. It's not the flesh itself that's important but the trace Essence that remains. Even if the shedim are regenerating the meat, I wouldn't allow them to regenerate the Essence.

I think one of the earlier editions suggested that the Infected need 5% of their body weight in ____ (bones, blood, whatever the specific species needs) every week. Not too bad for the smaller Infected, but tougher for your dzoo-noo-quas and fomóraigs.


I suppose it -could- work if you've got a cyberdoc handy, though. Just keep grafting bioware replacement limbs on and cutting them off, since a clonal replacement is generally accepted to not cause Essence loss.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 23 2016, 04:05 PM) *
And as we've said before, if you're going to houserule it, why bother with the question? Just decide how you want to do it in your game and do that.

It doesn't really and any value to a question of rules-as-written theory to state you houserule it differently because reasons.

Actually, I got quite a bit out of that discussion. I consider it a very educational thread, on multiple topics/ideas.
Adhoc
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 23 2016, 12:54 AM) *
Fine until the Master Shedim gets out and then your players are going to be hunted until the end of time.


If it goes well, someone will be pissed. If it goes bad, someone will be pissed.

Either way, I (as a GM) win - lotsa a potential adventures in the future.

A.
Sendaz
Maybe throw a twist in there that the body parts harvested from the Master are also 'tainted' slightly and the more they eat the more a ghoul may fall under the Master's remote control.

Starts off with the ghoul hearing eerie whispers/seeing shadows out of the corner of the eye slowing building to a presence in the back of their head, encouraging certain behaviours.

Could also lead to a scenario where some ghoul thralls work to break the Master free for some retribution.

JanessaVR
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jun 24 2016, 06:10 AM) *
Maybe throw a twist in there that the body parts harvested from the Master are also 'tainted' slightly and the more they eat the more a ghoul may fall under the Master's remote control.

Starts off with the ghoul hearing eerie whispers/seeing shadows out of the corner of the eye slowing building to a presence in the back of their head, encouraging certain behaviours.

Could also lead to a scenario where some ghoul thralls work to break the Master free for some retribution.

That's actually a rather good mini-campaign idea. The ghouls who eat the meat start to hear...whispers...in their thoughts, and, of course, it's calling its minions to come free it from captivity.
Sendaz
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jun 24 2016, 12:19 PM) *
That's actually a rather good mini-campaign idea. The ghouls who eat the meat start to hear...whispers...in their thoughts, and, of course, it's calling its minions to come free it from captivity.

It works best if one of the runners or a close contact of their's is a ghoul so that way the team eventually gets tipped off something is hinky and have the opportunity to set things alight--err right. wink.gif
Adhoc
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 23 2016, 01:01 AM) *
Depending on how you interpret the dietary needs of ghouls, it likely wouldn't work. The whole point of their need for flesh is Essence, and a shedim-occupied corpse has been dead far too long to still have trace Essence (which IIRC lasts 24-48 hours).


I've never heard about trace Essence before. Do you have source or indication to it from somewhere?

Ghouls don't have the "Essence Drain"-power - they "just" have the "Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Flesh".

This indicates to me that they only need the physical composition of the meat and not anything related to magic, so they don't need the essence.

(Besides, I always thought the essence was a measurement of how much the physical body and the astral body was alike (which is why critters can have essence 6+).

Love,
A.
Sendaz
it goes back a ways but even then is sort of vague.

Like in 3rd edition Shadowrun Companion pg 32 saying how scientists couldn't find the exact compound in metahuman flesh the ghouls seem to need and that it may be tied into the aura of the meat.

On a side note you may want to look at MetaJerky™ option to make those lopped off limbs last longer though again the whole essence thing is a contested one:

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22954.15

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1318416
Blade
Dunkelzahn offered money in his will for whoever would come up with a meat replacement suitable for ghouls, and as far as I know it has not been claimed, while human body cloning have existed for some time, so I guess there is something more than just physical composition.

(And thanks to Google's autocomplete, when searching for Dunkelzahn's will, I discovered that there's such a thing as "Dunkelzahn the Musical"...)
binarywraith
Even further back to 2e, there's a short story from the perspective of an infected that talks about it. I'm trying to remember which book it's in

Found it. It's one of the major subplots in Nyx Smith's Who Hunts The Hunter, with child vampires who can astral perceive and see what they're 'eating'.
Bodak
If you're mostly looking to get Regeneration, paying karma to your friendly local Free Spirit Pact or hiring someone with Invoking to dig up a Great Form Plant spirit is going to be a safer investment than messing with Shedim.

Umi's maths went along the lines of:
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 23 2013, 07:32 PM) *
A few quick back-of-the-envelope calculations.

According SR4A, p. 73, 98% of the global sapient population is metahuman, while "the remaining 2 percent of the global population includes dracoforms, ghouls and other vampiric entities, spirits, artificial intelligences, shapeshifters, and other sentient non-metahuman species." So even without accurate numbers of total population, we still know that there are no more than 2 Infected for every 100 people, and realistically closer to only 1 per 100.

Ghouls require 5% of their body weight per week in human flesh. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume perfect consumption efficiency and state that for every 100 ghouls, you need 5 human corpses per week, or 260 corpses per year. Thus the minimum overal number of corpses consumed by ghouls per year can be measured as 260% of their population.

Crude Death Rate is measured in the total number of deaths per year per 1000 people. As of July 2009, the global CDR was 8.37 deaths per 1000 per year, or 0.837 deaths per hundred per year. If the percentage of the global population which is ghouls is greater than 0.3219%, this death rate is insufficient to feed them all. If the percentage is somewhere around 1%, say 1.287% of the global population (still well below the 2% cited above), you can at best feed a quarter of the ghoul population, assuming perfect "harvest" efficiency, meaning every year the ghouls would be forced to kill and eat a number of people equal to 195% of the ghoul population, effectively increasing the CDR from 8.37 per 1000 to 33.466 per 1000, roughly quadrupling the CDR.

Even if the CDR is already much higher in 2075, ghouls are theoretically unfeedable by passive means alone.

And none of this even accounts for detailed information.

For example, Humans make up 60% of the population, so at least for that portion these numbers are "roughly" accurate. Orks and Trolls provide more meat and have higher death rates, but while Orks are a relatively large group, they're still a minority, and Trolls are actually pretty rare. Additionally, you can also have Ork and Troll ghouls, which increases the amount of meat you need per individual ghoul. Moreover, given the relative disenfranchizement of Orks and Trolls, they may have disproportionately higher rates of Infection, resulting in the global Ghoul population not cleanly mirroring un-infected metatype ratios. Elves and Dwarves likewise complicate matters, as they not only live longer and provide less meat, they're probably also less frequently Infected thanks to better standards of living, and therefor make up a smaller portion of the ghoul population, counteracting their reduced intake of human flesh.
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 23 2013, 08:52 PM) *
For example, not every scrap of every corpse is useable. What actually counts as "Metahuman Flesh" in terms of magical theory? Could you dig up old bones and eat those, or does it actually mean muscle and meat? Moreover, even if the ferals could survive off mere bones and sinew, the still sane ones might not be so undiscerning. I get that you don't have much of a choice, but with groups like Tamanous willing and able to fill a blackmarket demand for choice flesh, the "natural harvest" needs to be able to compete in terms of quality of cuts of meat. There there's the matter of damage to the body, which accounts for a significant number of deaths and which would destroy useable parts. Then there's "harvesting", preservation, transportation, pricing, regional supply discrepancies (a lot easier to get fed in places where more people are dying), and so forth.

This doesn't even begin to touch on legal and religious concerns. Do you have any idea how messy the laws on the possession and storage of human remains already are in our own day and age? How do you handle Organ Donations? Does Joe Human get his kidney transplant, or does Johnny Ghoul get his kidney pie?
Since Ghouls require 5% of their body weight per week in human flesh it would make sense to minimise consumption requirements and maximise production by ensuring ghouls are emaciated (often the depiction) and obesity kills people (already the case). Keep ghouls as light as possible and make people as heavy as possible before dying - getting them to drink plenty of water would be cheap, but depleted uranium smoothies could work too. As long as hungry ghouls are a third of the weight of their dead livestock, that improves sustainability quite a bit.

If RAW chose to use the term body weight when body mass was equally available, all you'd need to do is build a Lagrangian habitat where the ghouls would be weightless, so that 5% of their body weight would be zero. See how they like that mana void!

QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jun 23 2016, 11:38 PM) *
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 23 2016, 11:05 PM) *
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Jun 23 2016, 07:42 PM) *
And I've contested this as making no sense, regardless of what the canon rules say.
It doesn't really and any value to a question of rules-as-written theory to state you houserule it differently
Actually, I got quite a bit out of that discussion. I consider it a very educational thread, on multiple topics/ideas.
What you put into it and what you got out of it could be quite different.
(Assuming "and" was supposed to be "add" in binarywraith's post.)
Adhoc
Okay, here is an update.

The PCs went back to the underground room where the horde of shedim was stashed away and stole one of them by petrifying him and lifting him out of the horde with a Levitate-spell.

They bought him the new productionfacility of Cold Cuts ™ and placed him in a iron maiden with his arms and legs sticking out. Every two minutes gullotines came down and cut them of for him to regenerate them. Antropomorph androids picked up the bits and places them in a bucket which was hoisted up. Amidst intense screaming the bodyparts were then vacuumpacked and placed in a refridgerated truck.

After a while, they had a full truck of bodyparts and the background count in the room had increased significantly - repeatedly cutting the limbs of a shedim will do that (bad mojo).

It was quite fun to scream like a gutted man every two minutes and quite unnerving to the players. And probably also my up/down-stairs neighbours.

They talked to the local Tamanous-group and gave them some sample to spread around. And they talked to the consulate of the ghoul Asamando and shipped a refrigerated container full of bodyparts down there. So far, so good ... right now they are awaiting for the results of their initial marketingscheme. However, the shedim didn't like being cut to pieces again and again and again, so after a while it decided to leave the body and tried to escape. One of the mages uses Control Thoughts on him and forces him back into the body, but since he now has (re-)occupied a body without arms & legs, the legs and arms won't regenerate.

So players go out, find a new body, rip the larynx out of it to prevent the screaming, order the shedim to leave the first body and occupy the new one. They order it to stay in they body and quicken the Control Thought-spell on him. So he is not going anywhere. They met up with Tamanous again and was followed home by a drone. They tracked the drone back to the rigger's apartment and one of them was close to loosing it, while his spirit was ripping the place apart.

So things are moving along - there is a lot of play, but they've also realized that the market is somewhat limited and their best bid for a lucrative business is in Asamando.

Would you accept a free ticket for a business trip to a ghoul nation in sub-Sahara?

SPILLERE, spoilerfeltet indeholder spoilers for jer - lad være med at læse det.

The spoilerfield is for my players - everybody else is free to read it.

[ Spoiler ]



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