KCKitsune
Jan 24 2018, 08:59 AM
(This is for SR 4 and 5)
OK, maybe I'm misremembering it, but I thought it was possible to have a datajack installed anywhere you wanted on your body. I know most of the time it's installed behind the ear(s) or on the temple, but is possible to have one installed in the back of your hand, or forearm?
Hell I can see a Decker having one installed in the back of the hand and if he gets trapped by Black IC, he can make the conscious effort to yank his hand back and while he may get dumpshocked, it's better than dying.
Kren Cooper
Jan 24 2018, 02:21 PM
AFAIK, you can have one pretty much anywhere. Nothing wrong with having a datajack concealed under a false fingernail or flip up finger tip so you can just stick your finger in a socket. Or, like you say the back of hand, forearm, knees, wherever you want. I can't see an issue with that at all.
And you just know that some "star" has one installed on their junk, and has starred in "Attack of the Nazi Fembots", with an entirely predictable plotline about the only way to deliver the critical ICE that would take them down and save the free world....
Wakshaani
Jan 24 2018, 02:30 PM
You can put 'em about anywhere. Street Samurai would regularly put them at their wrist, for instance, in order to feed a Smartgun link with a shorter cord than the traditional temple mount, and you can see a couple that were ocular mounted (gah!) in a cybereye, but most are temple or behind the ear, as noted.
The more interesting one, to me, was always the RiggerJack, which is at the base of the spine, rather than in the head. This was used to have a spinal "interruption", where a rigger would shut down their legs in exchange for "half-Jacking" in to a vehicle, letting them read the vehicle's moving around like their own running but still leaving their upper half active, so they could use their hands and communicate with people, rather than doing the deadfish slump.
Which, by the by, is why the Decker can't yank his hand back to avoid black ICE if he was able to recognize it ... the ASSIST that allows you to go VR shuts your body off from your control. You go limp when jacked in, like someone dead or an astral projecting mage. You can't see or hear anything going on with your body, nor can you walk, give hand signals, or jack yourself out. Black ICE further locks out your usual disconnection protocols, making it hard to get away in the first place.
It's scary stuff for a reason, omae!
Jack_Spade
Jan 24 2018, 02:36 PM
Just to speak for SR5 rules RAW: Datajacks are Headware without capacity, so they have to be implanted in the head (quite logical since that's where your brain is), but...
...if you get an internal router you can connect to practically any eternal visible cyberware augmentation to get DNI
SpellBinder
Jan 24 2018, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I thought the pulling of capacity for a datajack was a dumb move (among many for the edition). In part, by RAW, anyone who gets a full cyberskull is practically screwed when it comes to getting a datajack.
JanessaVR
Jan 24 2018, 08:04 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 24 2018, 06:30 AM)
Which, by the by, is why the Decker can't yank his hand back to avoid black ICE if he was able to recognize it ... the ASSIST that allows you to go VR shuts your body off from your control. You go limp when jacked in, like someone dead or an astral projecting mage. You can't see or hear anything going on with your body, nor can you walk, give hand signals, or jack yourself out. Black ICE further locks out your usual disconnection protocols, making it hard to get away in the first place.
It's scary stuff for a reason, omae!
I came up with a way to beat this problem years ago. You have a speaker broadcasting the audio from everything you do while you're in the matrix. Listening to that speaker is a robotic arm, clamped onto the cable for your datajack. If you speak a specific code word, it yanks the cable. Whatever software locks they have in place to stop you from logging out don't mean a damn thing. Better dumpshock than being nabbed by the cops.
Taking it a step further, you can be strapped into a drone wheelchair that immediately follows a pre-planned escape route if the cable is pulled. So even if you're still out of it, you're making tracks before the cops can arrive.
KCKitsune
Jan 25 2018, 06:59 AM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 24 2018, 09:30 AM)
You can put 'em about anywhere. Street Samurai would regularly put them at their wrist, for instance, in order to feed a Smartgun link with a shorter cord than the traditional temple mount, and you can see a couple that were ocular mounted (gah!) in a cybereye, but most are temple or behind the ear, as noted.
The smartgun thing is what I was thinking about.
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 24 2018, 09:30 AM)
Which, by the by, is why the Decker can't yank his hand back to avoid black ICE if he was able to recognize it ... the ASSIST that allows you to go VR shuts your body off from your control. You go limp when jacked in, like someone dead or an astral projecting mage. You can't see or hear anything going on with your body, nor can you walk, give hand signals, or jack yourself out. Black ICE further locks out your usual disconnection protocols, making it hard to get away in the first place.
It's scary stuff for a reason, omae!
I thought it was possible to override the ASIST gear so that you can move. NOT recommended, but something you COULD do.
QUOTE (Jack_Spade @ Jan 24 2018, 09:36 AM)
Just to speak for SR5 rules RAW: Datajacks are Headware without capacity, so they have to be implanted in the head (quite logical since that's where your brain is), but...
...if you get an internal router you can connect to practically any eternal visible cyberware augmentation to get DNI
I know it's called "Headware", but honestly, I'm agreeing with Wakshaani & Kren.
Second, The Internal Router cyberware is a joke! Your cyberware should ALREADY have that internal router installed by default and for zero Essence. It's kinda like getting a computer and having to pay extra for the motherboard.
I also very much miss skinlink. I know that most people didn't like it when Catalyst got rid of it, but honestly we have that technology NOW!
Wakshaani
Jan 25 2018, 07:01 AM
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 25 2018, 12:59 AM)
The smartgun thing is what I was thinking about.
I thought it was possible to override the ASIST gear so that you can move. NOT recommended, but something you COULD do.
Kinda, yeah. Not sure if the rules were ever put in for it, but, it mucks with you terribly. You're seeing in VR, not realspace after all. Your body is trying to interact with stuff it sees there, which means you can easily grab something sharp, run into walls, walk into traffic or off ledges... seriously bad mojo.
Bodak
Jan 25 2018, 01:15 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 25 2018, 07:01 AM)
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 25 2018, 06:59 AM)
I thought it was possible to override the ASIST gear so that you can move. NOT recommended, but something you COULD do.
Kinda, yeah. Not sure if the rules were ever put in for it,
They were put in for SR3 at least; it's a +8 TN penalty, or a +4 TN penalty if the RAS Override is bypassed (Mat.19, M&M.21, R3.96, CC.65). It's common for BTLs and BTL decks to be modified this way (CC.64, CC.123) so the chipper can chip-n-walk, but as you say, that could lead to a
bad trip.
Smartlinks also had an induction pad in the palm (or an induction datajack if you wanted the extra functionality / could spare the Essence).
SR3 datajacks (and chipjacks) counted as a cyberware router, just with not as many available ports (M&M.46).
Stahlseele
Jan 25 2018, 02:24 PM
SR3 hat a router as well, but it was already stupid back then and everybody just houseruled that what needed connecting was connected.
As for DataJack Location and Datajack being headware:
Eye-Datajack says otherwise. And induction Datajack says otherwise too.
You can or at least could, under SR3 rules, put a Datajack into Cyberlimbs as well.
There is literally no place in your body where you can not have a datajack, if you want it.
Granted, having it where you can not access it would be stupid, but eh . . dumbrunner is a word that exists for a reason . .
My most egregious abuse of this rule was a way to actually make SR3 Skillwires a viable choice . .
Bodak
Jan 26 2018, 12:00 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 25 2018, 02:24 PM)
My most egregious abuse of this rule was a way to actually make SR3 Skillwires a viable choice . .
A body compartment containing a skillsoft jukebox, a chipjack and datajack jackpoints maybe? At first it looks like an expensive way to go because:
- the Body Compartment can normally only hold items up to Concealability 9 (M&M.27)
- the Skillsoft Jukebox starts at Concealability 6 (SR3.296)
- miniature equipment is available at ×150% price per +1 Concealability (SR3.291)
but then you realise the Skillsoft Jukebox's price is a multiple of its memory, and you don't need it to have
any memory at all since Skillsofts can only load from a chip or Headware Memory (CC.60) - no other memory sources qualify. So 0
+ 150% + 150% + 150% suddenly becomes quite affordable.
Stahlseele
Jan 26 2018, 09:06 AM
@Bodak
Bingo!
You basically make an internal version of a skillsoft jukebox, which is the most important thing to have for any skillwire user in SR3.
And you don't even need to be cut open to change/repair it or switch the chips in it. And if somebody actually gets that close to be able to take it from you anyway, you are pretty much fucked anyway.
Because in my case it was in the body of a big and burly sourly Troll under tons of armor.
Add in the skillsoft expert system, things like the joints and synthacardium and he basically started with 11 dice in the physical skills and 8 dice in whatever else he chose to put into it. And he could have more than a dozend of these available. And because i had actually modified the jukebox to be DNI enabled as well, he could still switch the skills with a free action by thinking about it.
And finally, the skillwires were not some unuseable background story piece of expensive tech.
Bodak
Jan 26 2018, 10:38 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 26 2018, 09:06 AM)
Add in the skillsoft expert system, things like the joints and synthacardium
Now if only SR3 had had the Edge "Restricted Gear" one could have started the game with a ASIST Rating 8 Skillwire system, second-hand to fit within the 1 million
limit, and then get your Adaptive DIMAP Personalised skillsofts during play. Because I don't know anyone who has undergone cybersurgery after chargen despite the detailed rules in M&M. So whatever rating you've got when you hit that Finalise button on NSR3CG is the one you're stuck with!
Still, OT for the OP, even though SR3 categorised datajacks and chipjacks as "Headware" it explicitly allowed the jackpoint(s) to be mounted outside the head including in a body compartment. I was keen on a
tailbone mechadendrite myself but it never happened.
Yet.
Stahlseele
Jan 26 2018, 11:51 AM
Sure.
Prehensible or however that is called/spelled cyber-tail.
With control mod. And then the Datajack or Plug at the end.
Tecumseh
Jan 26 2018, 09:16 PM
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 24 2018, 12:59 AM)
Hell I can see a Decker having one installed in the back of the hand and if he gets trapped by Black IC, he can make the conscious effort to yank his hand back and while he may get dumpshocked, it's better than dying.
In case anyone else wants a trip down memory lane, this was done in short story from the
Into the Shadows anthology from the early 90s:
QUOTE (Robert N. Charrette @ October 1992)
Cross shook his head. "I don't have to touch anything to jack out. I figured you'd try something like this, so I wrapped
my leg around the power cord. All I have to do is thrash—"
Reality returned to Brandon Cross with the crack of a neurological whip. His vomit trashed the deck.
Given that Jordan Weisman edited it, I'm going to allow it.
JanessaVR
Jan 26 2018, 11:44 PM
QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Jan 26 2018, 01:16 PM)
In case anyone else wants a trip down memory lane, this was done in short story from the Into the Shadows anthology from the early 90s:
Given that Jordan Weisman edited it, I'm going to allow it.
A cruder version of my scenario above, but the same general idea. Software locks can't beat forcible physical disconnection.
Bodak
Jan 27 2018, 01:28 AM
The important thing to remember is that neurons operate on
the order of milliVolts. Therefore, it is crucial that a cyberdeck which interfaces with those neurons operates within the same milliVoltage range. Mains voltage at the powerpoint is 240 Volts, but eh, why not amp that up even higher? What's the worst that can happen? Gotta be better than psychotropic conditioning, right?
QUOTE (Shadowrun 14: NOSFERATU by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne p73)
The ground behind him turned into a swamp as a tar pit program activated; in the meantime a multitude of thin black serpents sped toward him. His reaction speed hit Mach 2. Black mambas, huh. Fastest thing without legs and poisonous as hell. Black IC. If he jacked out now, he'd lose everything and would never get back in. He'd faced this one before. That was why he'd slapped those monitors onto his body. Michael knew he didn't have long before he would be automatically disconnected by his own deck. He whirled his spear around in a circle just above ground level,
hanging tough. The Frame was already executing a sensor-triggered withdrawal when the shock hammered through him and he was flung bodily across the room, the ripped-out wires quivering over the side of the table. Michael twitched in delicate spasms for a moment, then lay still.
Looks like it has been tried before. Sounds safe enough to me!
Titan
Jan 27 2018, 09:59 AM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 24 2018, 08:30 AM)
You can put 'em about anywhere. Street Samurai would regularly put them at their wrist, for instance, in order to feed a Smartgun link with a shorter cord than the traditional temple mount, and you can see a couple that were ocular mounted (gah!) in a cybereye, but most are temple or behind the ear, as noted.
Here is my issue with this statement:
Is this called out anywhere in the 5e source material?
Note: I'm
not arguing against the sentiment at all.
This is just one of the gaping holes 5e leaves wide open, either expecting years (if not decades) experience in the game or leaving deliberately vague allowing a whole mess of confusion.
Thanks to the
Internal Router (CF:84) it can be easily inferred that a Datajack anywhere but the head can't work without said Internal router.
Again, I'm not arguing this is the way it is. I'm just pointing out that it is easy to jump to this if a person is brand new to Shadowrun, and only has 5e to go off of.
Wakshaani
Jan 27 2018, 02:55 PM
That continues to be a problem that the writers, myself included, have. Expecting that built-in knowledge gives us things like the Essence Hole not being explained as it never crossed anyone's mind that new people wouldn't know this, a HUGE oversight that nobody caught.
We gotta work on that, big time. You'll see some lessons learned being applied, such as in Forbidden Arcana where the spiritual undertones are talked about, some controversies, and some laying out of the Bridge. Hopefully, moving forward we can remember the Stan Lee mantra: Every issue is somebody's first.
Titan
Jan 27 2018, 08:51 PM
I appreciate that Wakashaani. I think it is safe to assume everyone involved appreciates that, but to be completely fair to the writers that isn't a primary job for them. Sure, the better the writers are at avoiding the expectation of built-in knowledge, the better. But that is a primary job of the editor(s), and you writers should have a better support system.
That aside, I come from the end of 2e / 3e era of Shadowrun. I took the lack of mention that a Datajack could be installed anywhere as a deliberate change.
Why? Because 5e has the atmosphere of "Everything is Hackable!™" And "Deckers to the Frontlines!™" With the removal of the induction pad in the palm, and Wireless On required to get the most useful benefits of Smartlink, not to mention the Matrix Standard Operating Procedure of lighting any deadly weapon's icon up in neon lights screaming to everyone with a commlink that "this person is carrying a deadly weapon!", I took it to mean that if you wanted any Smartlink bonuses without your weapon being Wireless On, you had to conspicuously run a cable from your head to the weapon - drawing attention to yourself.
Allowing Datajacks to be implanted in the wrist, say, and having them work properly kind of takes away from that atmosphere.
Not that that is a bad thing...
KCKitsune
Jan 28 2018, 07:33 AM
QUOTE (Titan @ Jan 27 2018, 03:51 PM)
I appreciate that Wakashaani. I think it is safe to assume everyone involved appreciates that, but to be completely fair to the writers that isn't a primary job for them. Sure, the better the writers are at avoiding the expectation of built-in knowledge, the better. But that is a primary job of the editor(s), and you writers should have a better support system.
That aside, I come from the end of 2e / 3e era of Shadowrun. I took the lack of mention that a Datajack could be installed anywhere as a deliberate change.
Why? Because 5e has the atmosphere of "Everything is Hackable!™" And "Deckers to the Frontlines!™" With the removal of the induction pad in the palm, and Wireless On required to get the most useful benefits of Smartlink, not to mention the Matrix Standard Operating Procedure of lighting any deadly weapon's icon up in neon lights screaming to everyone with a commlink that "this person is carrying a deadly weapon!", I took it to mean that if you wanted any Smartlink bonuses without your weapon being Wireless On, you had to conspicuously run a cable from your head to the weapon - drawing attention to yourself.
Allowing Datajacks to be implanted in the wrist, say, and having them work properly kind of takes away from that atmosphere.
Not that that is a bad thing...
Well I think an enterprising street doc might be able to just wire up the induction pad (using what is known about the 2050 smartlink) to link to a piece of cyberware. You could have an induction pad to link to your cyberware Deck and another one linked to your smartlink in your eyes. I know without wireless you can't get "up to the nanosecond weather for the flight path of your bullet" (which is such utter horsedrek as to not even be close to remotely funny), but you could still mentally control the gun.
Iduno
Feb 1 2018, 01:27 AM
Yeah, moving the timeline forward while trying to retcon means everyone will do the logical thing and let someone still have old knowledge.
Unless we want to be rid of something, like non-dikoted everything or ranged attacks that could only be performed once per IP. Everyone agreed weapons should work as simple actions, and dikote is either everywhere or nowhere (both having the same numerical effect of everything being equal), so those things were successfully forgotten by everyone in-game. Deckers not being able to hack a passing car, and needing to permanently ruin ways characters advance is terrible, so the old ways of defending against those ideas are still remembered in-game.
Glyph
Feb 1 2018, 02:14 AM
For every new edition, the rules of the universe change. Going from SR4 to SR5, skinlinks are gone, datajacks no longer have a capacity rating, and shapeshifters no longer regenerate or suffer from being dual-natured or severely allergic to silver. The best thing to do is to treat it as a new reality that shares most of the past from the previous one, make new characters, and start over.
If you want to maintain some continuity (to keep playing your old characters or whatever), the only real way to do it is to either ret-con or house rule the inconsistencies.
Iduno
Feb 1 2018, 02:28 AM
Yeah, but I was commenting that changes that need to be made, or at least make some sense in-game go over a lot better than unnecessary changes that also don't make sense. "SR5 with SR4 wireless" or "Don't play SR5" are common ways to deal with the changes making wireless everywhere, but nobody really misses dikote.
Just because the rules change, doesn't make the changes good.
ThreeGee
Feb 1 2018, 05:24 PM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 1 2018, 02:14 AM)
For every new edition, the rules of the universe change. Going from SR4 to SR5, skinlinks are gone, datajacks no longer have a capacity rating, and shapeshifters no longer regenerate or suffer from being dual-natured or severely allergic to silver. The best thing to do is to treat it as a new reality that shares most of the past from the previous one, make new characters, and start over.
If you want to maintain some continuity (to keep playing your old characters or whatever), the only real way to do it is to either ret-con or house rule the inconsistencies.
The best thing to do is not buy Shadowrun 5.
JanessaVR
Feb 2 2018, 01:47 AM
QUOTE (ThreeGee @ Feb 1 2018, 09:24 AM)
The best thing to do is not buy Shadowrun 5.
I've purchased some of the SR5 books, but I only mine them for ideas for our SR4 game.
SpellBinder
Feb 2 2018, 05:29 AM
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 1 2018, 06:47 PM)
I've purchased some of the SR5 books, but I only mine them for ideas for our SR4 game.
+1
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