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Sengir
For those who haven't read the books, the premise of the setting is that minds can be digitized, stored and "resleeved" into new bodies at will (assuming you have the cash, of course). The protagonist is hired by a guy rich enough to afford a regular offline backups, who had his head blown away just minutes before his next upload would have been due -- police say it was a suicide, but the resleeved backup from 48 hours ago has no idea why he would kill himself.

So far it delivers some great imagery, and a level of ultraviolence appropriate to the source...and a lot of nudes. On the other hand, the exposition is worse than hamfisted at times ("here, let me tell you people who just got resleeved what sleeves and cortical stacks are").
bannockburn
Well, at least they mentioned that the people who just got re-sleeved might have memory loss issues.

But yeah, the amount of exposition is staggering, and it's not well done.
Also, the source material is pretty much butchered so far. It's not necessarily a bad story and I'll hold off judgement until I've watched it all, but it's grating if you know the book(s).

Great visuals though.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 2 2018, 02:29 PM) *
So far it delivers some great imagery, and a level of ultraviolence appropriate to the source...and a lot of nudes. On the other hand, the exposition is worse than hamfisted at times ("here, let me tell you people who just got resleeved what sleeves and cortical stacks are").

Hmmm. Starting to sound like Game of Thrones, another series I've been avoiding. "Hey, look, we're on cable! Nudity! Violence! Swearing! Woo-hoo! Plot? What's that? We've got great T&A! You gotta check this out!"

Sigh...
bannockburn
I don't know where you get the idea that GoT doesn't have plot, but okay. Your decision and all that.

Personally, I think that nudity and ultraviolence gets old fast as a gimmick, but when it's done right it can set the tone very effectively. Especially in a setting like AC.
Sengir
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 3 2018, 12:28 AM) *
Also, the source material is pretty much butchered so far.

"Butchered" makes it sound like some cruelty inflicted upon the helpless book, IMO it's just what gets done for TV any serialization. I'm about halfway though, my biggest complaint so far is how they turned Envoys into some kind of anti-UN movement (and merged Quellcrist and Vidaura in the process).

@Janessa
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 3 2018, 12:59 AM) *
"Hey, look, we're on cable! Nudity! Violence! Swearing! Woo-hoo!

More like "Woo-hoo, we're on cable, we can finally adopt this source material without completely bowdlerizing it". It's a setting where a dead body means nothing (offline backups are for the rich, but everybody has an implanted "cortical stack" as a local backup) and those with the money can switch into a better body at will, attitudes changed accordingly wink.gif
bannockburn
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2018, 02:04 PM) *
I'm about halfway though, my biggest complaint so far is how they turned Envoys into some kind of anti-UN movement (and merged Quellcrist and Vidaura in the process).


Yes. I get that you have to adapt a book to a different medium. OTOH I'm asking myself why they even bring Quellcrist up if they want to check out the viewing rate first. That whole background story is mostly ignored in the first book and it would make a great standalone as is, without establishing Kovacs as one of her elite guard early on.

But as I said, I'm withholding judgement until I know more.
Bodak
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 2 2018, 10:29 PM) *
minds can be digitized, stored and "resleeved" into new bodies at will
Sounds like Dollhouse using terminology later picked up by Eclipse Phase.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 2 2018, 10:29 PM) *
The protagonist is hired by a guy rich enough to afford a regular offline backups, who had his head blown away just minutes
Sounds like the opening scene from The 6th Day.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2018, 01:04 PM) *
It's a setting where a dead body means nothing
When Gamer came out I remember it being criticised for the high carnage level and low care factor, but that was the whole point it was making - that attitudes then are far different from those which (some) people in the present have. So if gore has a purpose (beyond revenue) it can support the story. Same for nudity.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 6 2018, 12:39 PM) *
Sounds like Dollhouse using terminology later picked up by Eclipse Phase


AFAIR, Altered Carbon is one of the great inspirations of Eclipse Phase's core background.
Edit: EC and Dollhouse came out at roughly the same time (in 2009), while AC is from 2002. Personally, I can't remember that I felt that DH was inspired by AC like transhumanist themes, but it's been a while since I watched it. There's at least one actress from that series in the AC adaptation, though.

I'm a bit farther in and I have to say that I wouldn't call it Altered Carbon as it is in book form. Yes, the basic story is there, if barely. Yes, Kovacs is a grade A asshole, as in the source material. No, the story is very different.
Doesn't mean it's bad, but I don't think it is as good as the novel, and IMO it would have profited from leaving out all the material from the later two books.
Still, great visual design, good presentation. The actors range from meh to good. I particularly liked the Dias de los Muertos scenes - cringy family drama packaged with a very absurdly sleeved grandma. Great stuff! biggrin.gif

I'll surely finish the season, but it hasn't gripped me as much as I anticipated it.
Cochise
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 6 2018, 01:20 PM) *
AFAIR, Altered Carbon is one of the great inspirations of Eclipse Phase's core background.


Let's just say that the two page reference list on what inspired EP is way too long to give anything a distinct label of being "a great inspiration" but Richard Morgan and his Takeshi series are indeed listed along with the works of 27 other authors among the "novel reference" section - which also includes names like Ian Banks and Alastair Reynolds. I was actually more surprised that certain names didn't show up on that list ... like C. J. Cherryh or Philip K. Dick

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 6 2018, 01:20 PM) *
Edit: EC and Dollhouse came out at roughly the same time (in 2009), while AC is from 2002.


EP also lists Dollhouse as one of its references / inspirations ... although given the Feburary vs. August releases in 2009 Dollhouse was certainly a rather late inspiration during final editing sessions.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 6 2018, 01:20 PM) *
Personally, I can't remember that I felt that DH was inspired by AC like transhumanist themes, but it's been a while since I watched it. There's at least one actress from that series in the AC adaptation, though.


I'd say the more heavy post-cyberpunk and transhumanist themes in Dollhouse were for large parts restricted to the respective season finales Epitaph One and Epitaph Two with the added problem that Epitaph One originally didn't even air as part of the first season.

**************************

Personally I liked the series ... probably because the Takeshi Kovacs trilogy is actually one of those that I haven't read so far. And despite the well enough entertainment I got from my two binge watch sessions it didn't instill that urge to actually read the books ... something that "The Expanse" certainly did after the very fist episode. Which reminds me ... Persepolis Rising was delivered today ... off to reading a book now.

bannockburn
I'd say using the exact same terminology counts as one of the main inspirations, but YMMV wink.gif

The series lost me in ep. 7, unfortunately, where it veers off completely and tells its own story.

Regarding Persepolis Rising: Wait for the next installment before you read this one. It's got a cliffhanger ending.
Cochise
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 7 2018, 09:00 PM) *
I'd say using the exact same terminology counts as one of the main inspirations, but YMMV wink.gif


Which is true for many other elements in EP that also use the exact same terminology as its non-AC-inspirations. So yes MMV there because a carbon copied word (pun intended) doesn't make the inspiration that much "bigger" than those plentyful others smile.gif

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 7 2018, 09:00 PM) *
The series lost me in ep. 7, unfortunately, where it veers off completely and tells its own story.


So the boon of not knowing the books saved me there ... Ignorance IS bliss ...

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 7 2018, 09:00 PM) *
Regarding Persepolis Rising: Wait for the next installment before you read this one. It's got a cliffhanger ending.


Doesn't bother me ...
Sengir
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 6 2018, 12:39 PM) *
Sounds like the opening scene from The 6th Day.

Well, the premise of The 6th Day was "witness the horrors caused by mankind interfering with god's sacred creation". That's certainly not a sentiment you have to expect from Richard Morgan wink.gif

I've also finished the season and...I don't like their envoys and especially not Quell's new ideology. And for some reason I can't really put a finger on, I found the last episode terribly boring.
Bodak
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 6 2018, 11:39 AM) *
Sounds like the opening scene from The 6th Day.
What I picked up from 6th Day was that death is just about the most significant possible consequence of actions. In essence, it is "No more Actions for you, ever!" If an industry removes death from the equation, all sorts of actions become worthwhile that otherwise wouldn't be. I can see the appeal in exploring that through roleplay.

I haven't read the series, but I started watching it when and because this thread brought it to my attention. So now I've seen three episodes. I like the "Bladerunner in Europe where everyone is fluent in Arabic, Japanese, Spanish, English, etc." grunge - reminds me of Firefly. I like the cameos from Dollhouse, 6th Day and Dark Angel. I like the Small Unit Tactics / Battletac extrapolations giving the protagonist insight just like "an I.T. Concentrate; a battle processor. I'm basically a general, his staff, two database groups and five logistical support teams all rolled into one stealth package" does in Dark Angel - that was cool. Except it seems to desert him completely in hotels, brothels, street fights and in zero-G arenas. Maybe the special effects were too hard to justify in such scenes, but a pro being caught by surprise where a square can see IT'S A TRAP is pretty hard on the suspension-of-disbelief. I liked his tactical compliance in using Merge (from the Wetware biopunk novel) excreted by a suspect's Tailored Pheromones bioware against that same suspect to interrogate what she feels. I like that the author(s) of Altered Carbon actually know what "flechette" is (it seems SR authors think it means "frangible", which is the opposite effect). I like man-portable railguns. Mostly, so far, it seems OK.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 2 2018, 11:28 PM) *
the amount of exposition is staggering, and it's not well done.
Hmm. I am surprised people have found this. So far I haven't encountered any such scenes. For example, one or two characters have dropped the phrase "needle cast", building up a bit of mystery around it, but what it is hasn't been revealed yet. Of course, out-of-character I can guess it's squirting a syringe full of data into a personafix chip, but for those who haven't played Shadowrun or similar, I think the content delivery is smooth and includes just enough context to get a clue and omits everything else to pique your curiosity.
bannockburn
You didn't notice the ham-fisted presentation to people who own stacks since their childhood on what stacks are? wink.gif

A needlecast is, btw, a stellar faster-than-light burst of data. For example, to cast some prisoner from Harlan's World to Terra and sleeve him into a criminal's body.
The explanation in this case is unnecessary since
[ Spoiler ]
, which makes FTL communication superfluous. So, just technobabble, really.

Bodak
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 2 2018, 10:29 PM) *
the exposition is worse than hamfisted at times ("here, let me tell you people who just got resleeved what sleeves and cortical stacks are").
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 12 2018, 08:38 AM) *
You didn't notice the ham-fisted presentation to people who own stacks since their childhood on what stacks are? wink.gif
Having now finished the series, I think this exposition was brief and in-universe justified. We saw in episode 1
[ Spoiler ]

And we saw in The Lemmings Scene in episode 8
[ Spoiler ]

And we're told a number of times that brief amnesia is normal after a resleeving. So for people issued with a gratis sleeve at the facility, a pre-recorded message establishing context for them in a situation where they don't remember / know what's going on seems sensible.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 12 2018, 08:38 AM) *
A needlecast is, btw, a stellar faster-than-light burst of data. For example, to cast some prisoner from Harlan's World to Terra and sleeve him into a criminal's body. The explanation in this case is unnecessary
Or install a criminal into a cop's body in this case. I didn't notice an explanation of "needle cast" in the dialogue, so I'll take your word for it. As I say, I think the exposition told just enough, but left quite a bit unanswered.
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2018, 01:04 PM) *
"Butchered" makes it sound like some cruelty inflicted upon the helpless book, IMO it's just what gets done for TV any serialization. I'm about halfway though, my biggest complaint so far is how they turned Envoys
It always threw me when they were called "en voi" instead of "ahn voi" (like encore, en-suite, en-passant). I haven't read the books so perhaps you can expound whether the conspicuous plot holes were artefacts from the books or just a simplification introduced in the conversion:
[ Spoiler ]


QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 10 2018, 06:09 PM) *
And for some reason I can't really put a finger on, I found the last episode terribly boring.

Well we knew all the loose ends had to be tied up to a test audience's satisfaction.
[ Spoiler ]

There are only a few permutations those encounters could fit into an hour.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 3 2018, 09:34 AM) *
Personally, I think that nudity and ultraviolence gets old fast as a gimmick, but when it's done right it can set the tone very effectively. Especially in a setting like AC.
Agreed. I think the nudity was generally quite matter-of-fact and reminded me of Bladerunner. I think the impression given by nudity was consistent with the impression given by violence. The whole gist is that everyone is sick and corrupt and dysfunctional, yet they still strive to be better than someone (anyone!) else for their own self-esteem.
[ Spoiler ]


QUOTE (Cochise @ Feb 7 2018, 05:29 PM) *
it didn't instill that urge to actually read the books ... something that "The Expanse" certainly did after the very fist episode.
Agreed. The Expanse had thorough world-building and deep character-building. The magnetic aggro was a bit simplistic (DM: there's a clue about water theft here. Players: we go there. DM: there's a distress call. Players: we go there. DM: there's a pirate base offering you refuge. Players: we go there. DM: there's a planetoid with the shuttle with that name. Players: we go there. DM: there's been a battle over an agricultural moon. Players: we go there. DM: a kid went missing in the derelict wing. Players: we go there.) but being based on a roleplay game gave it a really solid foundation.

And I agree, Altered Carbon series doesn't really inspire me to research the books either. I mean, I get the idea that:
[ Spoiler ]
bannockburn
Regarding the urge to read the books coming from the series:
I completely understand the lack of it.

For me it's usually the other way around (also Expanse series): I read the books first, and get excited about the series, then get disappointed that it's pruned to a usually less intricate (difference of media, and so on, so: understandable) and bafflingly different story. wink.gif

Really, I can't recommend the books in this case enough. The inofficial prequel Black Man is also good (although it has it's lengths and intuitive leaps to smooth over plot dead ends), and there's another cool one from the same author that deals with a rigging road duelist manager type.
Machiavelli
I like the series for the optical impression. It is close to what i think, SR looks like. Maybe even closer than Blade Runner.
Sengir
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 19 2018, 06:32 AM) *
Having now finished the series, I think this exposition was brief and in-universe justified. We saw in episode 1
[ Spoiler ]

She asks who Kovacs thinks they are, not what wink.gif

The fact that people have problems with the "cs" actually is a memorable moment at the start of the book, upon waking up he hears somebody mispronounce "Kovacs", which makes him realize he's no longer on Harlan's World, where Slavic names are too common for anyone to make that mistake.
And his persistent mentor is called "Quell", short for Quellcrist, after a plant native to Harlan's World that's impossible to eradicate because of its durable spores. She advocated that insurgents should make use of DHF technology in a similar way, operating on practically infinite timescales and drifting back into the cracks for a couple of decade when routed by the establishment. So you might understand why the Quellism from the series rubs people the wrong way...

QUOTE
And we're told a number of times that brief amnesia is normal after a resleeving. So for people issued with a gratis sleeve at the facility, a pre-recorded message establishing context for them in a situation where they don't remember / know what's going on seems sensible.

If someone wakes up from coma disoriented and with memory loss, do you explain to them what surgery is? wink.gif

I agree it would have been a fine opportunity for a history brief of the last hundred years or so, with a bit of "and of course, x is still the case".

QUOTE
Well we knew all the loose ends had to be tied up to a test audience's satisfaction.

The novel ties them up more or less the same way, but it felt far more interesting...really can't tell you why, but the last episode bored me to death.
Bodak
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 20 2018, 07:27 PM) *
he hears somebody mispronounce "Kovacs", which makes him realize he's no longer on Harlan's World, where Slavic names are too common for anyone to make that mistake.
Ah! Mea culpa. Right - they do pronounce it more of a "ch" sound. I think I must have picked up the "x" pronunciation from watching Zoo series 2 which is all about someone they definitely do pronounce as "Kovax". It was painful to watch. The team leader was SO confused by technology, suggesting using VPNs to triangulate the location of field agents in sewer pipes wacko.gif and blaming her inability to hack into something on them having an "encrypted firewall" (as if that could work!). Each time she came up with such far-fetched crack-pottery, her team around her would wear "you have NO idea what you're doing, do you?" expressions. Then someone decided a triple helix of _D_NA could encode entire genes into single base pairs and I had to stop watching. I reckon that's where I picked up the KovaX from. If they'd spent even 1% of their budget hiring a high school student to check the science made sense, the tech explanations made sense (and the pronunciation was right) the show would have been 100% more watchable.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 20 2018, 07:27 PM) *
And his persistent mentor is called "Quell", short for Quellcrist, after a plant native to Harlan's World that's impossible to eradicate because of its durable spores. She advocated that insurgents should make use of DHF technology in a similar way, operating on practically infinite timescales and drifting back into the cracks for a couple of decade when routed by the establishment. So you might understand why the Quellism from the series rubs people the wrong way...
An echo of the "I'll always be here" mantra Kovach and Rei share then. Interesting. In which case, she would want to be found and revived to continue the Cause. I can see that flip irritating readers, but moreso acting as a roadblock for future seasons without some heavy retconning.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 20 2018, 07:27 PM) *
If someone wakes up from coma disoriented and with memory loss, do you explain to them what surgery is? wink.gif

I agree it would have been a fine opportunity for a history brief of the last hundred years or so, with a bit of "and of course, x is still the case".
Hmm. That's a fair point.
Sengir
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 21 2018, 01:26 AM) *
but moreso acting as a roadblock for future seasons without some heavy retconning.

The second book is mostly independent from the Quell story...the third book, on the other hand, revolves around the history of the Quellist rebellion. For better or worse, a third season would IMO be only possible as an "inspired by" story
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