Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Design Challenge - Chargen mage that is the team
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Iduno
A good shadowrun team has a mage, decker, and someone who can do damage. Stealth and face abilities are a must. But is having more than a single character necessary?

At character generation, a mage can "only" have up to 12 spells (improved invisibility, increase reflexes, increase charisma, levitate, sterilize, maybe one or two combat spells, then...something?). This is the last time they have a real limit, so we'll restrict ourselves to chargen, not what we can do after one or two runs.

So dumpshock, give me your worst. The most absurdly broken mages your minds can come up with; laughing off drain, multi-casting with impunity, etc. 12 dice is a good starting point for skills, but let's treat that like a rigger treats a speed limit.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Correction, with the Right Qualities, a Mage can gain an additional 6 or so spells at Chargen... (See Forbidden Arcana - though there is a Drawback if I remember correctly).
And no, I (We) Don't have any issues with Forbidden Arcana. smile.gif
Tecumseh
Well Iduno flagged this "SR4" so I'm guessing he's not very interested in Forbidden Arcana.

I'm not even sure Spellcasting would be the source of brokeness for a one-man army. If I were to do it, I'd double-down on Summoning and Binding. If you're rolling around with a half-dozen (or more) spirits in tow then you have most of your physical and astral concerns covered. Make an elf with a Charisma tradition and you're most of the way to being a Face too.

That leaves Matrix as the largest outstanding need.
Modular Man
Sounds like a Voodoo tradition - they roll Charisma for Drain and get possession spirits, for example Guardian (for the fighting), Man, Guidance (visions of the future, what's not to like?) and Task spirits (who get a technical skill as an optional power).
The Hacker side of things sounds a bit tricky, though. I may come back to that. Maybe an Inhabitation Spirit Ally - it could get Hacking skills as those are technical skills as well. Darn expensive in Karma, though.
For the Rigger side I recommend the Command Rigger - also called the "fake" Rigger. It can save ressources on money and essence.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Apr 4 2018, 01:53 PM) *
Well Iduno flagged this "SR4" so I'm guessing he's not very interested in Forbidden Arcana.

I'm not even sure Spellcasting would be the source of brokeness for a one-man army. If I were to do it, I'd double-down on Summoning and Binding. If you're rolling around with a half-dozen (or more) spirits in tow then you have most of your physical and astral concerns covered. Make an elf with a Charisma tradition and you're most of the way to being a Face too.

That leaves Matrix as the largest outstanding need.


Indeed... Missed that tag, apologies Iduno. smile.gif
Iduno
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 5 2018, 09:20 AM) *
Indeed... Missed that tag, apologies Iduno. smile.gif


Hey, no problem. I've been here...a while, and just found out how to create that tag. Plus I frequently browse with images turned off, so I miss things like tags and where buttons are. Either way, I came up with 6 spells. A sorcery 4/conjuring 6 (or conjuring 5/binding 5?) would be plenty of power.

QUOTE (Modular Man @ Apr 4 2018, 05:20 PM) *
Sounds like a Voodoo tradition - they roll Charisma for Drain and get possession spirits, for example Guardian (for the fighting), Man, Guidance (visions of the future, what's not to like?) and Task spirits (who get a technical skill as an optional power).


That is good. I hadn't considered rigging drones as a shortcut to damage. Especially combined with spirits (as Tecumseh said), for not needing to show up for a fight yourself (or making your escape while corpsec are busy). Task spirits should also be able to handle decking.

I was expecting either an elf or dwarf for maximum drain resist, so the voodoo tradition would work well.

Mystic Adept saves 5 points over mage, and I remember losing astral perception being the biggest downside. Is there anything we want from adept skills that spirits won't already give us?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tecumseh @ Apr 4 2018, 04:53 PM) *
Well Iduno flagged this "SR4" so I'm guessing he's not very interested in Forbidden Arcana.

I'm not even sure Spellcasting would be the source of brokeness for a one-man army. If I were to do it, I'd double-down on Summoning and Binding. If you're rolling around with a half-dozen (or more) spirits in tow then you have most of your physical and astral concerns covered. Make an elf with a Charisma tradition and you're most of the way to being a Face too.

That leaves Matrix as the largest outstanding need.


In SR4, you can get a Level 4 Agent (with level 3 Adaptability) with can hack as well as a hacker with Cybercombat level 4. Pair that up Commlink that has its Response upgraded to 5 and Attack 6 (with Optimization and Ergonomics), and while it might not be a creative hacker (though better than bog standard rating 4 Agent), it can hack (11 dice on the attack).
Stahlseele
@Iduno
Adept improved skills for something you can not boost reliably otherwise would be an idea.
Otherwise, no, adepts can do nothing a mage can not do just as well or better.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2018, 02:45 PM) *
Correction, with the Right Qualities, a Mage can gain an additional 6 or so spells at Chargen... (See Forbidden Arcana - though there is a Drawback if I remember correctly).
And no, I (We) Don't have any issues with Forbidden Arcana. smile.gif

Even more (as a speciality also counts as a Level wink.gif )
jup. the dedicated Spellslinger can be Awesome ( even though there is a considerable Drawback )
I made 2 Chars who're just waiting to be played .
BUT I don't consider them broken ,Imba or something like that , So I can't help Iduno with his request .
My ...."most unbalanced" Char was a (Spike Baby )Elf with CHA 9 ,MAG 6 and a concentration on Summoning
With 9 (10) Spirits, he could ...."kill any Plot" that's why I don't play him anymore .
The more Interesting aspect of his was that He was Born in the 1970's and he was active in creating Pomorya .
With Friends in High Places ( some of the most Influential Pomoryans Plus Lady Brane Deigh )Plus some Extra Karma at Creation he knew oh so many People that he also served as Face and Fixer too ( If you don't mind that your stuff is from the Pomoryan Secret Service wink.gif )
P.S:
Sorry I didn't see the SR4 Tag(and Tecumseh's Post wink.gif ) and since I don't create Chars for SR4 anymore (still have a dozen of them waiting to be played) I can't help Twice

with a Pomoryan Dance
Medicineman
Glyph
You can certainly make a Jack of all trades mage in SR4, mainly because as KCKitsune already pointed out, hacker-in-a-box is still a thing. Spells and spirits enable combat and stealth - spirits also take the place of drones (recon and fighting for you). A racing bike with minimal pilot skill replaces the team van, since you are the team. A Charisma tradition with high Charisma and middling to low Influence skill group lets you be an acceptable face.

BUT... this would be the opposite of a "broken" mage. Shadowrun's character creation systems are all balanced with limited resources and opportunity costs. The most potentially broken characters are the ones who hyper-specialize and take advantage of combining high skill(s) and linked Attribute with multiple dice pool boosters. Generalists, by contrast, can easily spread themselves too thin. All of the extra roles the mage above is taking come at the expense of being a more kick-ass mage. Furthermore, while the character could fill all of those roles, he/she would not be as good as a dedicated face, hacker, etc.
Modular Man
Incoming: Wall of Text! Replies first, advanced ideas second, niché character concepts third. Got a little carried away here...

Replies
QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 8 2018, 10:29 PM) *
BUT... this would be the opposite of a "broken" mage. Shadowrun's character creation systems are all balanced with limited resources and opportunity costs. The most potentially broken characters are the ones who hyper-specialize and take advantage of combining high skill(s) and linked Attribute with multiple dice pool boosters. Generalists, by contrast, can easily spread themselves too thin. All of the extra roles the mage above is taking come at the expense of being a more kick-ass mage. Furthermore, while the character could fill all of those roles, he/she would not be as good as a dedicated face, hacker, etc.

That is essentially correct.
I've seen a hyperspecialised mage (could cast mostly without any drain whatsoever) who with his spirits and his spells might've wrecked just about any plot. In a team of six he rendered the combat duo and the medic mostly obsolete. Only the rigger and the sensor adept (played by me) still mattered.

Advanced ideas/mechanics
KCKitsune's hacker in a box will work. If you want to get rules-heavy, the quality "Restricted Gear" will allow you to take an agent rating 6 - pick a Mook (it's in "Unwired" and basically an unrestricted agent) and you will be able to do a lot of meaningful matrix work. Don't expect it to break into the super-secret Ares mainframe, though.
QUOTE (Iduno @ Apr 5 2018, 05:41 PM) *
That is good. I hadn't considered rigging drones as a shortcut to damage. Especially combined with spirits (as Tecumseh said), for not needing to show up for a fight yourself (or making your escape while corpsec are busy). Task spirits should also be able to handle decking.

This seems like a build short on ressources. Drones are expensive. Spirits pack more punch in relation to costs.
Task spirits can actually not do any decking/hacking. Both materialisation and possession spirits cannot perceive AR, so hacking is impossible. Inhabitation spirits can do that, normal traditions don't get those, unless you create an ally spirit and let it inhabit something with a matrix connection. This is a real sinkhole for Karma and other ressorces.
QUOTE (Iduno @ Apr 5 2018, 05:41 PM) *
I was expecting either an elf or dwarf for maximum drain resist, so the voodoo tradition would work well.

That seems like the appropriate metatype. Dwarfes also get a bonus to Body, which helps with armour, damage resistance and the physical damage monitor. Infrared sight is just on top.
QUOTE (Iduno @ Apr 5 2018, 05:41 PM) *
Mystic Adept saves 5 points over mage, and I remember losing astral perception being the biggest downside. Is there anything we want from adept skills that spirits won't already give us?

This honestly depends on whether or not you follow the official FAQ. Mystic adepts got nerfed there.

Drawbacks of generalisation
I'm currently playing a mystic adept using drones and such. I've not yet ventured into serious spellcasting or summoning. He's already at over 200 Karma. It's not that I optimised everything to fill all possible roles, I tend to overextend my characters' base and then get sidetracked by "something cool". It's what keeps a min-maxer like me in check wink.gif
It is very easy to try to create a Jack-of-all-Trades, but if you're not careful, he will be unable to do anything meaningful.
Remember to pick all the low-hanging fruit, rules-wise wink.gif Pick appropriate specialisations for more cheap dice wink.gif
That said, this topic is more of a thought exercise than building an actual character. Characters that excel at everything hog the spotlight like no other, that leads to angry players.

Character ideas to consider


The "Voodoo Swiss Army Knife"

High Charisma and Willpower as Drain attributes. Can summon both Guardian and Task spirits capable of possession. If he lets those spirits into himself, said spirit will use the character's body with its skills, so he doesn't has to have them. High Charisma makes him into a good Off-Face. Pick some utility spells (combat is cornered via spirits) like detection spells and you can pretty much find anyone and anything, including targets for infiltration or assassination. Drawback: Any sufficiently high background count will seriously hinder you.

The "Fake Rigger"
Is not actually a rigger, has no rigger control implanted. He steers drones via the Command program, thus eliminating the need for upgraded drone matrix stats. Usually goes with the quality "Codeslinger" applied to the matrix action "Control Device", this will grant a +2 modifier to any test remote-controlling any drone/car. I got the general idea around here. Drawback: All actions via Remote Conrol become complex actions.

The magical anathema
Skips magic entirely. Has both the metagenetic qualities "Astral Hazing" and "Arcane Arrester". "Arcane Arrester" halves the rating of any spell targeting the character including the maximum to successes. Gnomes get it by default, so do Fomori. "Astral Hazing" grants the character a rating 4 background count, poisoning the astral plane [Essence] meters around him. Combined these mean that most magical effects will never reach you. Ultimate defence and rather cheap. Drawback: No magical offense or utility magic whatsoever. Even magical healing becomes nigh impossible.

I hope this provides food for thought.


KCKitsune
QUOTE (Modular Man @ Apr 9 2018, 03:08 PM) *
Advanced ideas/mechanics
KCKitsune's hacker in a box will work. If you want to get rules-heavy, the quality "Restricted Gear" will allow you to take an agent rating 6 - pick a Mook (it's in "Unwired" and basically an unrestricted agent) and you will be able to do a lot of meaningful matrix work. Don't expect it to break into the super-secret Ares mainframe, though.


I thought about that as well, but I figured that would be a waste of BP/Karma for not that big of a return. Rating 4 is plenty good enough for a starting character. Those points would better spent on Resources or spells.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012