Hello!

Still playing Sr3 - we had a long break and now we are getting back to it.

One of the group characters learned the metamagical ability to conjure greater spirits. In MITS it says that a greater spirit may use it's powers against a number of people equal to force.
This brought up a number of questions, because the core rules are now no longer clear to me.

Can the the greater spirit
- Use powers outside it's domain?
- Use materialization power outside it's domain, is it an exception?
- In case the greater spirit is within it's home domain, do the Core book rules apply then (if they are better per situation)?

If a normal bound nature spirit casts concealment, confusion or accident within it's domain...
- How many targets can the spirit affect with it's power?
- Does the spirit require LOS or is it sufficient for the targets to be inside the spirit's domain?
- Does the spirit need to materialize to use these powers?
- Can a sprit conceal a car (I suppose random/other vehicles could then accidently ram the concealed car)
- Are technical sensors of other cars also nerfed?

Welcome back.
I'm by no means an expert in magic/MitS, but I will try and answer as best I can, and in the same order you asked your questions:

Can the the greater spirit
- Use powers outside its domain?
I *think* that a spirit can not move beyond its (not it's, please!) domain, so, logically, it cannot use its power outside its domain either. However: saying they could not use their powers to influence something/somebody in other domains would, IMHO, cripple spirits to the point where they could never interact meaningfully with the world. A 'spirit of the woods' in a forest on a mountainside would/could/should definitely be able to influence something/somebody in the local mountain domain, assuming all the regular restrictions are overcome, e.g. line of sight.

- Use materialization power outside its domain, is it an exception?
Following the same logic, I'd say that a spirit cannot materialize outside of its own domain.

I'm not sure I follow your third question,
- In case the greater spirit is within its home domain, do the Core book rules apply then (if they are better per situation)?

As to
- How many targets can the spirit affect with its power?
Didn't you just answer that yourself? i.e. "a greater spirit may use its powers against a number of people equal to force"

- Does the spirit require LOS or is it sufficient for the targets to be inside the spirit's domain?
That should be explained under each power; most of which, I think (and I have no rulebooks here), require at least LOS.

- Does the spirit need to materialize to use these powers?
I'd say yes, generally speaking a spirit needs to be fully present on this plane to interact with things on this plane.

- Can a sprit conceal a car (I suppose random/other vehicles could then accidently ram the concealed car)
Certainly. Who do you think is responsible when your car keys go missing, and then you find them in plain sight after you've spent 20 minutes arguing with your kids about them? Just remember that magic works on people, not technology.

- Are technical sensors of other cars also nerfed?
If by 'nerfed' you mean influenced by the spirit's power, then (generally) no. (Usually, we use the term 'nerfed' to describe a rule or item that's subjected to an official rule change that makes it less useful/powerful/valuable/whatever Example: "My GM nerfed Predators to only one shot per initiative pass").

I hope that helps a little. Happy hunting in the shadows!

Greatform Nature Spirits can explicitly cross domain lines.

I believe the Force targets for Powers applies only to powers that are normally limited to single targets as the Powers and Spirits sections in all other books does not reference any limitations on targeting in such a way.

My take on your questions: Great form Nature spirits - P107, MITS: GREAT NATURE SPIRITS Unlike other nature spirits, great nature spirits can cross domain lines

Can the the greater spirit
- Use powers outside it's domain? - Yes, because it is a great form, and it (and its powers) can cross domain lines.
- Use materialization power outside it's domain, is it an exception? - Yes, because it is a great form, and it (and its powers) can cross domain lines.
- In case the greater spirit is within it's home domain, do the Core book rules apply then (if they are better per situation)? No - use the rules in MITS where they superseed the core book.

If a normal bound nature spirit casts concealment, confusion or accident within it's domain...
- How many targets can the spirit affect with it's power? Great nature spirits may use their powers simultaneously on a number of targets equal to the spirit’s Force.
- Does the spirit require LOS or is it sufficient for the targets to be inside the spirit's domain? Range: Powers may have a range of Line of Sight (LOS), Touch or Self, indicating the power affects only the spirit (P262 SR3)
- Does the spirit need to materialize to use these powers? Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target, they must share the same “state”—astral or physical. For a spirit to affect a physical being, it must be on the physical plane
- Can a sprit conceal a car (I suppose random/other vehicles could then accidently ram the concealed car) Yes, as above.
- Are technical sensors of other cars also nerfed? Yes, I would say they are. We normally apply a +8 modifier to checks trying to spot a concealed person or vehicle.
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Sorr yfor the spelling in the preivous posts and thank you for the advice regarding the rules.
It helped a bit but

Regarding:


Rules from MitS on pg. 107 state that they can leave the domain.
Plus, the sentence that gives me so much pain: "Great nature spirits may use their powers simultaneously on a number of targets equal to the spirit’s Force.".
Still unclear how exactly this applies. Within their own domain, spirits are able to affect large groups of targets within LOS, even if it is just a force 3 spirit.

We completely agree now regarding LOS and materialisation. I found some rules on it too. LOS required, mana powers can only affect the astral or the conjurer unless materialized.

Regarding the concealment of a car, I'm still stumped how it can be useful if the ppl are fooled (e.g. by looking through the windscreen and not noticing any car in front of them), but the electronic devices from each car are still working. Most cars - especially in dangerous situations, like a chase -, will have high sensor levels and cannot be fooled then. The power would therefore affect the minds of any number of ppl who look at the concealed car?

Thanks for the detailed response. Sounds much more powerful - I will have a hard time going against my players with normal opposition when they run around with up to (charisma) (7) nature spirits ^^

Follow up question regarding your opinion on this question, though:
How many targets could a normal form spirit affect with its power in its own domain (e.g. confusion, LOS)?
As you have stated "Great nature spirits may use their powers simultaneously on a number of targets equal to the spirit’s Force. " would that also apply if they are within their domain and usw a power (e.g. confusion)?

Powers generally can only affect one person or thing with each action. Exceptions are noted in the power description. Note, many Powers can be Sustained with no effort, so the Spirit can affect another Target on its next action and so on.

The Concealment Power isn't Invisibility. It raises the TN for Perception tests which will also apply to Sensors.

I personally have always been uneasy about Great Form Spirits using their Powers outside their Domain. I think the ability to be able to Summon Spirits beforehand and put them on standby until needed is a huge advantage. The magician has time to rest and recover from any Drain, they save Combat turns during a fight, and they can control to a great extent where they are summoned such as a Home Ground or one with minimal Background Count. Just these advantages make Great Forms worthwhile. Allowing them to use all their Powers in any Domain sounds like how the RAW work, but it seems like letting a Sea Spirit use all its Powers in a desert is broken.

My house rule is to let them use their Powers that do not state using it in their domain to be used in any Domain, while limiting ones noting a Domain to only be used in its Domain. The benefit is that the Domain need not be the Domain it was Summoned in, for example a Hearth Spirit gets Summoned in the shaman's home, but can use all its Powers in any home.

While this all *can* be true, I don't believe it is often the case.

Syd the Summoner, has Conjuring 6, Charisma 7 (to match the one the OP mentions), and is a Grade 2 initiate - not a starting character, not massively powerful. He's summoning in his back garden, a nice background count=0 sort of area...

Without Invoking
They want to summon a Force 3 spirit - roll 6 dice (conjuring)+2 (grade) vs 3s = 4-5 successes probably. Because the spirit is <1/2 charisma, they roll their 7 dice vs 3L, easily soaking. Fair enough - force 3 is not bad, but they have lots of services. A F3 spirit going up against trained / elite guards is going to struggle, but against pedestrians or mall cops, will work nicely.

They want to summon a F6 spirit - roll 6 dice (conjuring) vs 6s = should statistically get 1 success. Spirit is < Charisma, so the drain is 6M - so they roll Charisma (7)+ Grade (2) for 9 dice vs 6s - and they will probably get 1-2, and take a light stun. No worries - only 10-15 minutes rest probably - so they will be good to go soon.

As soon as you move up to invoking through, the odds start to shift.
Force 3 spirit, great formed = Conjuring 6 vs 3s - 4 succseses. Drain is still 3L on 7 dice - so no problem. But then you need to make the invoking test - so Conjuring vs 2 X force-grade, so 6 dice vs 4s, needing only 1 success - so that's almost certainly fine. Now for the drain - it counts as F4 (force X 2 - grade), so it's over half charisma now, for a drain of 4m. Still 4 successes on 9 dice should statistically happen... so we're all good to summon a flock of F3 great form spirits. But again, while they are now awesome at dealing with a whole bunch of pedestians, by the time you as a character has invoking+grade 2, you're probably not worried about that as a threat level.

So, let's temper this down, and only go for a F5 great form instead of a F6. First test, we're rolling 6 dice vs 5s, so should get 1-2 services. The drain is 5M on 7 dice - so we're probably taking a light unless we throw a re-roll at it. For the invoking, we're testing against 8s on 6 dice - so as long as we get that 1 dice that *should* on average be a six, and then don't roll a one, we're good. But the drain is now 8S (F5 X 2=10, 10-grade 2 = 8, the force is now >charisma, so it's an S drain, the normal force makes it stun, not physical) Now we have 8S drain on 9 dice, so we're probably going to get 2 successes at most, and take an M. Now Syd the summoner is on M+L or 4 boxes of damage (1 from the first test, 3 from the invoking) - so we're talking 60-90 minutes of complete rest to get rid of that.

So sure - if you give an invoker half a day, he can turn up with 4 X F5 great form nature spirits, and that will ruin a lot of parties. But he's also spent 6 hours trying to get rid of drain, during which they've done nothing to contribute to their team, and needed to rest fully. Surprise that same summoner with a combat, and watch as he summons a F5 but then is on +2 modifiers for the rest of the combat from summoning drain, and really has to hope his 1-2 services are enough. Until you can get to Grade 4-5, and bring the invoking target numbers back down to something more manageable, you're not going to be running around with packs of spirits like a mage will have from his elementals. And by the time you do - you're probably facing packs of Shedim, Drakes, Free Spirits, Bugs or Horrors that require that kind of magical mojo to make it a fair fight.

All during this, our Summoning 6, Charisma 7 Hermetic, has had 7 F X6 fire elementals that they summoned last month and have LONG since drained, on standby and ready to mob stuff in combat. And they'll still be there after dusk, when the team have to delay their assault for Reasons™. While the poor shaman hits dusk, all their hard work vanishes, and they have to start again - and now a 6 hour delay is unacceptable, so they have to make the tough call of how many spirits, for how much drain, and how much stun to go into the fight with...

After the first use of Magic, there should be a background count, so either they move out of BG count area or wait for it to go away. Not really important, but just pointing out another issue.


It's been a while since I played, but I do not recall where the rule is allowing one to add their Initiate Grade to the Conjuring roll. Can you please point me to this?

<snip>
Again, I don't recall where one gets to add Initiate Grade to Drain Test, but would love to know where the rule is allowing it.

What I usually see is characters with a Trauma Damper and a combination of Initiate Grade and Charisma (Elf or Increase Charisma in a Sustaining Focus or Quickened) so Drain is rarely above Moderate to begin and and either Light or nothing after the Trauma Damper.

Hi there guys, dumpshock is still the best forum for sr3 questions I cannot ask for more explanation after the detailed examples, but since it's burning under my fingernails Just wanted to point out this one (i think it was missed in all the text passages):



PS I believe as well, that the initiation grade is not added to the conjuring test, but you area allowed to reduce the initiate grade from the drain checks during the extra checks for a greater form. This should be in MitS page 75, where the invocation power is explained.

The first point you make is a new one on me - do you have a source for that? I can't recall seeing where doing 'magic' creates a background count, and it doesn't fit with my fluff view well. Sure, cast a manabolt at D and kill a guy =background count from the death, intent, emotional charge etc. Marvo the Marvellous, performing a trid-entertainment spell at little Johnny's birthday party makes background count? That doesn't feel right. Likewise for healing spells cast, create food/water, and other stuff like that.

Adding grade to a magic test - this is probably one of our little house rule "clarification" things - We take the Astral Pool (Astral Abilities, P58 MITS) and say the pool is your magical know-how and can be added to any one part of a test - either the spellcasting or drain, the summoning or drain etc etc in a test. When spellcasting, you become dual natured during the cast IIRC, so we judged that as "being on the astral", and likewise when summoning and reaching into the astral plane to call a creature, it seemed to fit. So maybe not RAI, and possibly now RAW, depending on your interpretation of how things work. If you judge that you're not dual natured when performing the exclusive complex action of summoning then it should be ignored then - but that only makes the point even more valid by making it harder to drain.

Last point - I suspect it's part of the meta you play in. I've never seen a mage with a trauma damper at our table - if anyone is going to sacrifice a point of bio-index and have one point of magic suppressed, it's normally a mnemonic enhancer they stuff in there along with Enhanced articulation. I can see the value though, effectively making light stun irrelevent, or reducing the modifier from anything heavier to avoid the full modifier. Which is nice

That's from MitS regarding BG count and it looks like the GM that kept hitting me with it was trying to curb magic more than the rules really suggest. After looking at it, I would not impose a BG count on a first summoning, but it does seem to say it should happen at some point. If a shaman is summoning 6 or 7 F5 or 6 spirits twice a day, that sounds like it should start to apply.


SR3, p.262

While looking for that quote again, I saw directly preceding it (all under Range): So that would tend to cloud Great Forms being able to use their Powers in different Domains. Like I said earlier, I could go either way on this with MitS creating a rule superceding this.

Concealment specifies being able to conceal multiple targets, even stating concealed characters can see one another. (I think we ruled they need to be concealed under the same use of the Power, for example absent party members who join up and then concealed are 2 sets and the groups are concealed from one another. If Concealment is dropped and used on the entire group, they can all then see one another, which is probably as simple as concealing a second group - unless the first group has split up.)

Confusion does not specify multiple targets being able to be confused in the same Action (as MitS states GFs' limits to the number that may be confused in the same Action) so I would rule the spirit may confuse a single target every Action if it desires.

Accident does not specify multiple targets.

Regarding the use of Trauma Damper's in my experience, it is very often combined with the Pain Editor (.4 + .6 = 1.) The Pain Editor not only allows the mage to be able to ignore Stun modifiers, it also raises Willpower by 1 when it is active. Both features are quite useful in Spellcasting. I've seen initiate characters start taking bioware and cyberware to offset their rising Magic Attribute to avoid losing it to Magic loss tests.

BG Count is a bit fluffy I think. Also MITS contains a background table. You will see that a "heated argument" or "a bar frequently visited by awakened" already warrants a BG of 1. (pg84). Yes magic is specified with a certain BG too, however the caster concentrates and summons the spirit for a reason - maybe the emotion itself warrants the BG in such cases. So applying BG after spells, is completely okay. This type of BG reduces very quickly too. So if you cast a manaball to kill a team of troubleshooters there is high force spell + emotions + murder, so BG count would raise at the point where the spell was cast (at the caster) and where the troubleshooters were hit.

In the german book the text speaks of multiple persons in the paragraph of the power, that's why I assumed that it might be a multiple targets power. Found something in the english book as well SR3 pg 262 "Thus, a spirit could conceal a vanload of runners on one action, and then confuse the corporate security squad following the next action, without dropping the concealment". This sounds better than the great form spirit which is limit to a number of targets - and here I would add "outside it's domain".

Too bad they didn't write in the boock : "Type: single target / area ".... I mean, really was it that difficult? I will probably have my doubts about this on my death bed

Are you suggesting that some Shadowrun books could do with better editing or clearer text.


GASP!

*faints in horror*

</sarcasm>