If an ally spirit is sustaining say Physical Mask, does it have to be manifested? Or, can it cast the spell, then go back to the astral, and sustain from there.

No one has a theory?

Can't do it.

I am lead to believe no, unless it is casting a spell on your mage (but more on that later). There are a few places in the Core Rule Book, that lead me to belive so.

On pg. 182 under the Astral Spellcasting section it describes thebarier between the physical and astral planes as "an unbreakable pane of one-way glass ... someone who is astral projecting-can see things on the other side of the glass but any spells he throws are blocked by the glass, the barroer between the planes. A dual being ... exists on both sides of the glass simultaneously. He can see characters on both sides and attack any of them, but likewise can be attacked by any of them". In the introduction the Spirits and Dragons chanpter, spirits are only Dual natured when they manifest.

On pg. 187 under Physical Services it describes a fire elemental manifesting to "burn through a door". So we have a concrete example of a spirit only using its powers on the physical if its manifested.

On pg. 188 under Spirit Forms under the Astral Form section it describes spirits in astral form as being able to only "perform services affecting the astral plane or that directly affect the summoner through the magic link between them."

Depending on how you define that last part might allow spirits to cast spells with a target of their master. I would think this would work like casting through a focus from the astral , with the magician being a physical connection to the astral for the ally spirit. (which now that I mention it, is a rule from second edition that I can't find in the third)

Can someone with MitS see if it mentions that whole casting spells through foci thing in there. I lost my copy a few months ago. I kinda hope they didn't take it out, because it was a cool balancing factor for magicians who rely on focuses.

You only need to be on the same plane when it comes to spellcasting. Sustaining can be maintained indefinitely as long as you maintain concentration on doing so. If the subject shifts planes, the spell comes to an end because the spell was cast on one particular plane, but sustaining can be maintained just fine as long as it doesn't take an Exclusive Action to shift planes.

That said, a materialized spirit can't do it because it requires an Exclusive Action to use the Materialization power. Manifesting won't work either since the spirit is still completely astral and only creating a psychic image of itself to sentient, physical beings.

Materializing may be exclusive, but I dont think simply ceasing to be materialized is. Further, sustaining the materialization power is also not exclusive, as materialized spirits can use their other powers (and, in fact, they must materialize to use their powers on targets that arent astrally active). I see no problem whatsoever with an ally spirit casting a spell and then dematerializing while sustaining that spell.

ACL is right about manifesting, though.

Ahhh, but according to the Core Rule Book, materializing/unmaterializing is a simple action for spirits. Only for poor metahumans is it an exclusive complex action

Indeed, materialization is actually a simple action. Thats why I said "may," because I was lazy and didnt want to look it up but found the concept plausible.

I continue with my vote of "yes, an ally spirit can materialize, cast a spell, and dematerialize while sustaining that spell", now with increased resolve.

Fair enough. you posted at the same time as me so I actually was refering to the post above yours, but hey ... I am of the opinion that sustaining a physical spell on a physical object requires you to stay in the physical plane. Since sustained spells have an astral connection with the caster (IIRC visible in the astral as thread, mind you), if the caster shifts planes what does that do to the contact with the spell you are sustaining. Since there seems to be a barrier that blocks physical subjects from astrally cast spells, I extrapolate that the connection is lost.

Damn, there it is.

So how does this work with an Elemental helping you sustain a spell? Does that mean that the elemental must be present on the correct plain to sustain?

So, can my Ally cast Physical Mask on me, then go astral and sustain it.

No because sustaining cannot be maintained while performing an Exclusive Action, and shifting from one plane to the other is an Exclusive Action. But if it was, say, a water elemental, it could be on the astral when you cast it and then you could ask it to sustain it for you.

War of the Rules Lawyers!!! Actually under the description of an elemental's Spell Sustaining service on pg. 187, it says "An elemental can remain in astral space for this service."

Uhm, dude, that's what I just said. Unfortunately, 1) ally spirits aren't elementals even if they may have been before your creation of one and 2) spellcasting and sustaining are two seperate things. Thus even if an elemental could cast Physical Mask, it still wouldn't be able to sustain it while shifting back to the astral plane. It could sustain a spell you cast after it became astral again, but it couldn't carry one over.

Argh!!!! I've edited my post four times now and I just never get it right or in time. Anyway Clockwork already beat me to the punch on my last comment. I gotta type faster.

Alright this is getting silly. My last post was to be taken into context before Clockwork posted last. Stupid simultanious posting ....

... anyway, disregard what I said

Okay, here's the thing. An elemental's spell sustaining and an Ally's are two totally separate animals. The elemental ability is used by a mage to sustain a spell that he cast. The ally can only sustain spells that it cast. The ally generally follows the standard sorcery rules; so generally, if a mage can't do it, then the ally can't either. The specific rules have already been cited.

Also, IIRC, an astrally projected magician cannot sustain spells. I don't have a copy of SR3 immediately handy, but I believe they talk about it somewhere in the Astral section of the Magic chapter.

The question then becomes, can an ally sustain a spell while solely on the astral plane b/c, as a spirit, the astral is "more native" than the physical plane? or is it some strange aspect of the astral plane that says spells cannot be sustained without a physical presence?

I am pretty sure that mages can sustain spells in the astral. As far as I know, I've never run into anything forbidding it. However as post above contest, I miss stuff occasionally.

Edit - and I was all over the magic section today researching for discussion above.

Right. A mage can sustain a spell on the astral, just as he can cast a spell while astral. He can't, however, project while sustaining a spell, because projection is an exclusive action.

Damn if this keeps going I am going to end up confused.

Okay, let's make it easy.

A mage can sustain a spell so long as he doesn't take any Exclusive magical actions. He can dance, sing, travel astrally, whatever-- but two big Exclusive actions are casting an Exclusive-limited spell and Astral Projection, as in let-your-body-hit-the-floor, out-pops-the-spirit astral projection. The act of leaving your body is an Exclusive magical act, and you're not allowed to do anything else magically while you're performing an Exclusive act.

IIRC, Astral Perception is just a complex action, so he can do that. And if he's already projected astrally, he can cast and sustain a spell normally. But, he can't sustain a spell and *then* project; that would involve an Exclusive magical action, and he can't sustain spells through that.

So, think of it as a chain of events that's broken if the mage performs an Exclusive action. He can cast an Exclusive spell, or leave his body, and *then* cast and sustain a spell on either plane. But he can't sustain a spell and then cast an Exclusive spell, or leave his body; that would mean he took an exclusive action, and lost the spell.

What plane the mage is on doesn't really matter. He can sustain a spell on either. What he can't do is sustain a spell and /then/ send his spirit out of his body.

So... what about if the ally casts physical mask on you, starts sustaining it, and then a friendly free spirit uses its own astral gateway power on the ally to move it to the astral plane. Does the spell still drop or would that get you round the problem?

I mean who doesn't have a few powerful free spirits they could call buddies, right?

Astral Gateway sends you to the metaplanes. What happens next depends on how nice the Dweller is feeling.