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Ka_ge2020
Talk to me about these technologies and how they apply to the world of Shadowrun in its different editions.

I'll be honest and upfront in that I'm having the most problem with VR as at least in the earlier editions it seems to have been a panacea--the solution to make all things better. Thus, when you decked into the Matrix it was much better to be in VR/hot sim because... Reasons. Similarly in the rules that I've been reading over recently (e.g., Riggers, Deckers) AR is seen as the lesser of the two technologies. For example, IIRC AR is an impediment to rigging, but VR is not.

This doesn't seem to gel with how these technologies actually operate.

So, school me on these technologies in Shadowrun. Why is VR the bee's knees?

ggodo
Mechanics or lore?

Both have varied by editions, but the lore in maybe more consistentin application.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 4 2021, 06:21 AM) *
Thus, when you decked into the Matrix it was much better to be in VR/hot sim because... Reasons.

The "reasons" for that are pretty clearly listed in all the rulebooks: ASIST (Artificial Sensory Induction Systems Technology) is the largest one. It enables SimSense and DNI (Direct Neural Interfacing). Part of the ASIST suite is the RAS (Reticular Activation System) Override, which is basically the reason why you're not falling out of bed when you're having an intense dream. It prevents your body from moving when giving that impulse to whatever you're piloting in VR, and also dampens sensory input.
SimSense is not only great for porn and other types of borrowed senses entertainment (also: BTL), but is also the way to show a decker / hacker / rigger what they're actually seeing, hearing, feeling, and so on in the Matrix. DNI on the other hand means that reactions are faster than in your meat body.
At the same time, your body is "disconnected" via RAS Override, which is part of the tradeoff: On the one hand, you are not distracted by the weak meat (no matter if you're jacked into the Matrix or a vehicle / drone), on the other hand with the cutout, you're unaware of your surroundings.

QUOTE
Similarly in the rules that I've been reading over recently (e.g., Riggers, Deckers) AR is seen as the lesser of the two technologies. For example, IIRC AR is an impediment to rigging, but VR is not.

AR is not an impediment to rigging, because - by definition - if you're rigging, you are in VR. They are, in all cases, mutually exclusive. However, even characters without a VCR get a bonus of +1 to their dice pool on vehicle tests when using AR.

In terms of hacking/decking, VR and AR have a different focus: AR is less dangerous (you cannot take any damage at all, be it stun or physical, because you're not directly interfaced with the nodes you're accessing and the ICE in them trying to fry you), and the only thing in danger of getting burned is your deck / commlink, but in turn you have slower reaction times. It's also more mobile, because your body's sensory input isn't cut out. Imagine hacking in AR as piloting your persona or drone (or swarm of drones) in third person over the shoulder view (caveat: it isn't actually that; just shorthand).
Furthermore, with many tasks aided by AR overlays, you are awarded between +1 to +3 to your dice pool, provided you are running corresponding assistance software, or you can use tactical software to link up with all team mates (think minimaps and threat markers), that may manifest as initiative bonuses.
On the downside of this application, you can also be distracted, be it by spam or the vidcall you currently have flying around in your field of vision, meaning negative modifiers to other dice pools, like, e.g. perception tests not relating to the task at hand.
Finally: AR is more accessible. From SR4 onwards, everyone with a commlink and a pair of goggles can access it for cheap, and everyone does.

VR on the other hand lets you become your persona / avatar / vehicle / drone. It replaces your body and becomes it while you're jacked in. You have faster reaction times due to the direct neural link, but you are also more vulnerable. In cold sim, you take stun damage from grey / black ICE, and if you're running hot sim, it can be physical, depending on the type of ICE. If you get jacked out involuntarily, be it due to fried hardware (no matter if vehicle or deck / commlink) or a friend jacking you out when in danger (or just for the fun of it), you will be susceptible to dumpshock. Hacking, however, is much faster (compare probing a target intervals - VR: 1 hour, AR: 1 day) and more intuitive.
You can go anywhere on the planet (and even into space) without having to physically be there (unless, of course, the network is disconnected from the Matrix).
VR also has a higher entry barrier: You need some kind of DNI (usually a data jack, although later editions also allow bulky trode nets), which may involve surgery and a higher price than AR access. That is not to say that data jacks are not ubiquitous, but that can be a problem for, e.g. magic users.

In total, I am not quite sure why you'd see that as a panacea. For a decker it certainly is: the Matrix is a much better and more intense place to be than boring old meat bodies (especially in hot SIM, which is basically sensory input at BTL levels with the corresponding adrenal reaction and so on). For a rigger, it is also a much more visceral experience piloting their vehicle. There is a reason why these people can develop addictions to that level of input, and why they are crushed when it is taken from them (compare Case's case, pun intended, in Neuromancer): it all has benefits and drawbacks that need to be weighed in a given situation.

QUOTE
This doesn't seem to gel with how these technologies actually operate.

I have honestly no idea why you'd think that.
Ka_ge2020
This bit first...

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
I have honestly no idea why you'd think that.


Because I'm trying to get my head around the technology from a setting-first principle. The mechanics should reflect the setting and reinforce it, not provide their own reality just because.

QUOTE (ggodo @ Feb 4 2021, 01:21 AM) *
Mechanics or lore?

Both have varied by editions, but the lore in maybe more consistentin application.

As above, lore first (and thus consistency), but mechanics also need to be considered as a secondary function.

And, now, for full disclosure I'm not thinking about using the Shadowrun system for this game. I'm sorry, it's just too vast and complex of a beast, so I need to figure out how things actually work and make it consistent.

This is why I'm way more interested in the lore than the mechanics. The lore defines how it works, the mechanics define what dice you roll and, with Shadowrun, there's a lot of momentum in how mechanics represent things in the setting that seem based more on what was before than what might necessarily make more sense.

(I predict this is where I lose replies/interest... O_o )

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
...ASIST...

Thank you for the reminder. Please recall that I'm only recently getting back into the minutiae of Shadowrun after a long break. To do what I need to do this means that I'm primarily spending time working with the world history, so some of the more technical aspects I've missed. I'm sure that anyone that has been immersed in Shadowrun continuously for a long time will be able to appreciate just how much stuff there is.

Put another way, thank you for the (second) reminder about ASIST and in the way that you made it. This was very much a "Ahaa! You moron!" moment for me because it threaded another interpretative needle.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
AR is not an impediment to rigging, because - by definition - if you're rigging, you are in VR.

This is a "my bad" situation. SR4 seems to indicate that there is a difference between the two as it offers the difference between "something" and hot sim/full immersion. I thought that I had seen a negative modifier on AR control but that might also be one of the issues with juggling numerous systems. (I'm currently working with 4-5 to get this game running.)

With that said, I had imagined that for the most part that at least "secondary" vehicles/drones would be interfaced through AR to issue commands (etc.) and only when you needed to hot-sim would you truly jump into VR.

(And I still have questions on the nature of that VR and its effectiveness.)

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
In terms of hacking/decking, VR and AR have a different focus: AR is less dangerous (you cannot take any damage at all, be it stun or physical, because you're not directly interfaced with the nodes you're accessing and the ICE in them trying to fry you), and the only thing in danger of getting burned is your deck / commlink, but in turn you have slower reaction times.

From a lore perspective, one imagines that the AR perspective is based on to having to physically interact with perceived icons (AROs?) rather than just "think" your way through it?

I know this may seem rudimentary to you, but there are vast differences between how these two technologies might be implemented to capture the lore/background flavour without being led down the rabbit hole of mechanically-driven background.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
It's also more mobile, because your body's sensory input isn't cut out. Imagine hacking in AR as piloting your persona or drone (or swarm of drones) in third person over the shoulder view (caveat: it isn't actually that; just shorthand).

It's not a bad analogy, though, because it's essentially differentiating between AR view and FPV view (as it were; more direct control of a single object).

If you hot sim into a vehicle/drone, what happens to your ability to act with the other drones? Are you leaving them to their own "AI" software (or "dogbrain" is how I believe SR4 refers to it)?

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 4 2021, 04:02 AM) *
In total, I am not quite sure why you'd see that as a panacea. For a decker it certainly is: the Matrix is a much better and more intense place to be than boring old meat bodies...

Basically because of the almost mystical qualities associated with "hot sim" and how it relates to what is happening in the meat world.

For Decking this is probably partially related to the notion that live hacking in real time is actually a thing. For Rigging, on the other hand, it's what appears to be the notion that hot simming basically allows you to "fly like a bird." Both don't seem to address actually functionality behind the 1980s mythology about how VR will dominate the world. (Which, in the real world, seems to be the complete opposite.)

Thanks for helping me out!
bannockburn
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 5 2021, 12:30 AM) *
Because I'm trying to get my head around the technology from a setting-first principle. The mechanics should reflect the setting and reinforce it, not provide their own reality just because.

But they do, except where you are unwilling to accept VR for rigging. It's not "reasons" it's not "just because", it's based on popular cyberpunk tropes, and - in the case of most 'ware - consultations with actual experts on the topics during the early time of the game.

QUOTE
This is why I'm way more interested in the lore than the mechanics. The lore defines how it works, the mechanics define what dice you roll and, with Shadowrun, there's a lot of momentum in how mechanics represent things in the setting that seem based more on what was before than what might necessarily make more sense.

You are right, Shadowrun is a massive beast, especially in terms of lore. Most of the time (and up to a certain point that I won't rehash, because it's a different one for different people) I feel that it's internally logically consistent in how that is translated into mechanics.
You and your group seem very intent on the details, but I have learned in my time as a roleplayer that this is often when fun takes a backseat and obsession becomes the name of the game. This isn't meant as an accusation or judgement on you, merely as a caveat.
There are many points where game crunch systems break down when confronted with game fluff stories. HP systems like in D&D come to mind, and how Coup de Grace works (or doesn't), the metaphysical nature of Edge or Karma pool dice, and, of course, wireless matrix (which is completely bonkers from an IT point of view), or the nature of wireless bonuses in SR5, which apparently work exactly the opposite of how they were intended and in any case cannot really be quantified with real world physics.

My point that I'm trying to make here is: at some point, marrying fluff and crunch (or rather: scrutinizing that marriage too closely) results in the logic unravelling. Some gamified mechanics just need to be accepted or enjoyment will suffer. If the suspension of disbelief isn't sufficient, any piece of media entertainment will break down.

QUOTE
SR4 seems to indicate that there is a difference between the two as it offers the difference between "something" and hot sim/full immersion. I thought that I had seen a negative modifier on AR control but that might also be one of the issues with juggling numerous systems. (I'm currently working with 4-5 to get this game running.)

It's possible you saw the distraction modifier on other tests smile.gif
If you're busy with juggling 4 drones on virtual monitors in front of your eyes, you might be distracted from the sharp bend coming up.
Here's how that works: If you're in AR, you can imagine these viewports of the exemplary drones floating in your field of vision, so the real world input is notably less. If you do the same in VR, you are not distracted. You have a direct brain connection with no detour via your eyes, and the same viewports are just another "sense". A rigger doing that can fully drive his car in VR with the corresponding bonuses (different as they may be, depending on edition), and the VR initiative, and command his drones to do things (keyword: Captain's Chair mode) without being distracted by that. That is: apart from the necessity of spending actions on these things, which is why it might still be useful to have more crew, e.g. a gunner, in a vehicle. It's just another system that is part of the body at that point, an additional limb, if you like. It's completely natural, but if you want to flex it, you need to pay a bit of attention to it.

QUOTE
With that said, I had imagined that for the most part that at least "secondary" vehicles/drones would be interfaced through AR to issue commands (etc.) and only when you needed to hot-sim would you truly jump into VR.

You almost got it right, yes. You can control a drone or swarm of drones with AR, with the drawback of not having the corresponding additional initiative passes, and thus less efficiency (unless you also have wired reflexes, synaptic accelerators, drugs, or similar "real world" initiative enhancers). You can give them commands by spending actions, either as a group, or individually (by spending more actions), and you can jump into full VR to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL (Mass Effect 2). However, going full (cold or hot) sim doesn't remove the possibility to control other drones this way. It is strictly better in many ways, except for the long term addiction issues and the vulnerability of exposing your meat brain to the potentially deadly feedback of damage taken by your vehicle.

QUOTE
From a lore perspective, one imagines that the AR perspective is based on to having to physically interact with perceived icons (AROs?) rather than just "think" your way through it?

Yes and no. To see, hear, touch AR, you usually need corresponding systems. You can use AR gloves, headphones / earbuds with audio link, or goggles / glasses / contacts with image link as peripherals to physically interact with these AROs.
Or you have these systems implanted: audio link in your (cyber-)ears, image link in your (cyber-)eyes, and a data jack as DNI source can be used to interact with them by just thinking about it, just like a transducer was able (before SR4) to change thoughts into communication. A datajack (from SR4 onward) includes that tech, and you can think text messages or touch AROs and phone by thought without speaking.

QUOTE
It's not a bad analogy, though, because it's essentially differentiating between AR view and FPV view (as it were; more direct control of a single object).

Glad you got what I meant exactly. Where it breaks down is that the viewport of a particular drone would, of course, be the FPV of that particular drone, and in hot sim this becomes your own FPV.

QUOTE
If you hot sim into a vehicle/drone, what happens to your ability to act with the other drones? Are you leaving them to their own "AI" software (or "dogbrain" is how I believe SR4 refers to it)?

Basically, yes. Whenever you give commands to drones via AR (or in VR in the command mode), you only give them basic commands like "attack that" or "follow me", and the dogbrain (i.e. the Pilot autosoft, the Sharpshooter autosoft, etc.) takes care of the details. You can also directly control a drone in AR of course, but it'll usually be faster by itself, if you don't have initiative enhancers.

QUOTE
Basically because of the almost mystical qualities associated with "hot sim" and how it relates to what is happening in the meat world.

But it's not mystical. It's a well understood technology in the fluff, as well as explained with actual examples from our real world. Unlike magic (which is also mostly internally consistent with itself, due to pretty strict lore rules), cyberware and virtual reality interaction is (in most cases) a pretty realistic extrapolation of current technology. The question is usually not how that logically works, it's more how much it costs in terms of money and essence in comparison to the benefits the system in question provides.

QUOTE
Both don't seem to address actually functionality behind the 1980s mythology about how VR will dominate the world. (Which, in the real world, seems to be the complete opposite.)

Well, the real world has made huge strides in VR technology in the last 4-5 years. I personally own an Oculus Rift, and it's a big pair of goggles. However, it is also now pretty comfortable to wear and I can wear it for hours. Naturally, I can't run around with it, because I'm blind to the real world while wearing it, but my own movement impulses aren't overriden, although sensory input is replaced with the screens in front of my eyes, and auditory input is dampened, and I have louder input via the headphones. Noise cancelling tech could potentially completely remove outside auditory input in the future.
Nevertheless, it is still a clunky, wired thing that needs to be plugged in directly to my computer and requires some sensors set up around the computer space to fully function. Furthermore, it is a pain to use a keyboard and mouse with it, so I have to have a good HOTAS joystick or use the hand controllers (which are already pretty intuitive and comparable to AR gloves in SR), as well as voice commands via an additional software tool.
Today, you can buy a smaller one, that's even more comfortable to wear, with better resolution on the screens, better heat management, and completely wireless. I see the trend continuing in the very near future (especially when the entry cost of currently about 300 bucks becomes lower), and with direct brain interfaces being developed right now that may indeed be the way to access games and the internet in a few decades.

Also, for the AR development, keep in mind that Google Glass didn't fail because it didn't work. It is a hugely useful tool in work and lab conditions, but wearing it and constantly recording with it in normal circumstances, makes you a "glasshole". It wasn't accepted because society shied (rightly, IMO) away from it.
On the other hand, it is now being normalized that instagrammers and other influencers constantly record stuff around them. That is also a trend that may, in the future, lead to more acceptance for things like AR glasses.

Shadowrun had a bit of a period where no new tech was developed, so it isn't as far ahead of our current level as the 60 years of the official timeline might imply.

QUOTE
For Decking this is probably partially related to the notion that live hacking in real time is actually a thing.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?
Ka_ge2020
I've tried to respond to this several times but it's hard to ignore the implications of "badwrongfun" and what strikes me as the overt level of patronisation.

No denying that there were some good points in the above, but it's hard to get past the above at the moment to discuss in good faith.

Sorry. I know this sounds like a "Waaah waaah" (sound of baby crying), but as I've made clear elsewhere I'm not married to the Shadowrun mechanics, so the kind of protectionism that is being presented just doesn't do anything for me. I came here for experts in the lore and how things "work".
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
But they do, except where you are unwilling to accept VR for rigging.

False, as noted elsewhere. What I'm trying to do is figure out what it does without referencing the mecahnics. As noted in the other thread, I think that I've done this pretty well in terms of replicating what the VCR does in the game. Just because I don't believe that it deserves the huge Essence rating in no way deserves the kind of acrimony I'm seeing from some.

What I've been trying to do is figure out how to model this tech. If you happened to check that "other" thread, you'll note that how I'm modeling VCR's does what they do in SR (and a little bit more). Heck, it actually does more to make rigging a little bit more fun for the player.

Not sure how this would work in SR terms, but it works in the terms that I need it to.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
Here's how that works...

The AR model is obvious. Your VR explanation about how control is based on "sense" is... Errr. Not convincing. That, however, might be because I need more convincing.

Care to take another shot? One that doesn't replicate the Force?

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
You almost got it right, yes. You can control a drone or swarm of drones with AR, with the drawback of not having the corresponding additional initiative passes...

That's mechanical feedback. Explain to me what VR control is like when it comes to the individual control of a vehicle/drone and, then, how it works with multiple controls.

I can, and have, replicated it mechanically. On the other hand, I'm truly interested in how people actually see this working without going "cyber magic!"

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
Glad you got what I meant exactly. Where it breaks down is that the viewport of a particular drone would, of course, be the FPV of that particular drone, and in hot sim this becomes your own FPV.

Awwwwww. Thanks.

Tell me why FPV is magical in VR rather than AR (e.g. a screen).

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
...cyberware and virtual reality interaction is (in most cases) a pretty realistic extrapolation of current technology.

Cleary not.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
Well, the real world has made huge strides in VR technology in the last 4-5 years.

It has. And my commentary is literally based upon this and how it is not the magical solution that it was once thought as.

How does the brain interface change things? What are the relative advantages of AR vs. VR. (I suspect that AR is the more advantageous system in the real world.)

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
...makes you a "glasshole".

And, yet, the same technology is available in the same form factor without the acrimony because it's not as recognisable.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
Shadowrun had a bit of a period where no new tech was developed, so it isn't as far ahead of our current level as the 60 years of the official timeline might imply.

This is the retrotech setting that I'm trying to negotiate.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Feb 5 2021, 04:26 AM) *
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Merely the notion that a hacker can go "cold" into a system and realistically hack it on the fly.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 6 2021, 01:10 AM) *
I've tried to respond to this several times but it's hard to ignore the implications of "badwrongfun" and what strikes me as the overt level of patronisation.

No denying that there were some good points in the above, but it's hard to get past the above at the moment to discuss in good faith.

Well, if you feel that way, and get this defensive about having your apparently preconceived notions challenged, there is clearly no need to continue this discussion.
Suffice it to say, what you say is "false" and "clearly not" is completely different in my (and, as I saw in the other threads you mentioned, other's) opinion. You have yours, and that's fine, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on.
Have your fun your own way, I'm not judging. But don't expect us to engage on that level and build your own system for you for that, when literally everyone else doesn't agree with your point of view.

QUOTE
Sorry. I know this sounds like a "Waaah waaah" (sound of baby crying), but as I've made clear elsewhere I'm not married to the Shadowrun mechanics, so the kind of protectionism that is being presented just doesn't do anything for me. I came here for experts in the lore and how things "work".

And yet you don't accept their views. Which is fine, but don't try to argue that they're wrong if you're the one asking them about this.
For the record: I was the one who agreed with you on the matter of how much essence a VCR is worth, in the other thread that I abandoned because of your attitude. That means, I am actually the one engaging you here in good faith, and get it thrown back into my face: so, right back atcha.

Finally: Of course VR isn't a super solution in 2021. That was my whole point. There is no brain interface. You can't just think your game. You have a clunky pair of goggles that prevent it from being elegant and natural. If you can't see how circumvention of this necessity of unwieldy equipment (not to mention a powerful PC in the background) is the pathway to actually useful and mainstream VR (something that 90% of the world in SR uses, because it's natural and easy to access) then that's on you.

Have a nice weekend.
Iduno
It may also help to remember that Shadowrun is mostly the future of the 1980's, although it has started to make less sense as more modern tech creeps in. VR was the hot new technology that was going to make everything better back then.
Wakshaani
Short form:

AR = Augmented Reality = Lots of floaty images hanging around that you reach out and touch at the speed of your own physical movement.

VR = Virtual reality = Illusions fully contained inside your own head that you interact with at the speed of thought.

VR is thus faster, and that's an edge that you need when doing stuff.
Wakshaani
My fave AR example, showing the view from a Low Lifestyle pair of AR glasses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSfKlCmYcLc

Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Iduno @ Feb 6 2021, 10:36 AM) *
It may also help to remember that Shadowrun is mostly the future of the 1980's, although it has started to make less sense as more modern tech creeps in. VR was the hot new technology that was going to make everything better back then.

Aye, I certainly remember that and recognise that I'm probably just "fighting" against the retrotech as I have noted previously. As I approach this project, logical consistency is just a way that my brain works and, thus, I like things to make sense even if that is just recognising where things are Clarke-esque "space magic" (or "cyber magic," if you will). For a quick example, I loved the science (and pseudo-science) in Shadowtech because it gave the setting verisimilitude for the science part of "science fantasy" (which is how I would label Shadowrun).

This was borne out of the VCR thread because, I thinking about hot sim'ing into a vehicle (drone, whatever) it made me think about the true advantages (and disadvantages) between AR and VR with its concomitant implications over to decking. (Of the two, I would argue that decking is going to be the more forgiving of the environments as it is "like to like," or mental to mental.)

The "speed of thought" argument is well made, but I'm just trying to figure out what this means in practical terms. For example, for practised (or trained) actions, human reaction speed can be on the 150 ms range (or 15% of a single second). This isn't the same as making a decision; just reacting.

So, while Wak's description is great (thanks; another question on that below) is the "speed of thought" such a massive gain? Or is this another version of Wired Reflexes where "cyber magic" makes you move, or in this case, think faster? In essence, it slows down time so that you can take more "actions" than would otherwise be possible?

Is that how VR is working in Shadowrun?

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 11:21 AM) *
AR = Augmented Reality...

In my head, I still sometimes think of it as "Virtuality," which was introduced to me through Cybergeneration at about the same time that SR2 was published.

Is SR's AR an equivalent to "Virtuality" in that AROs can be hyperrealistic and can, in themselves, be used to "re-texture" physical space?

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 11:31 AM) *
My fave AR example, showing the view from a Low Lifestyle pair of AR glasses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSfKlCmYcLc

Oh, hell but that's obnoxious--and very appropriate. biggrin.gif
Wakshaani
I have a few video links that I use to explain AR to people, but the concept's gotten a LOT more exposure in the past five years, so I don't need to break 'em out very much.

In terms of speed... yes, speed of thought is greater than speed of hand. Not by *much* in many cases, but the difference between your synapse going "Do this" and it being done in VR and the same going "Do this" and it has to travel down the nervous system, get to the right limb, which then reaches out and interacts with Thing (using eyes and spatial awareness to doublecheck that it's in the right place) is a bit slower, and when you're dealing with digital things, that matters.

Of course, tehre's a whole other LAYER to that which I hope to cover in the future, if I get to do some work on Matrix foo. Ideas are cooking.

(As an aside, if you've never had a chance to play Tic tac Toe against a chicken at a carnival or fair, you should. Be forwarned that you will NOT win. Tie maybe, but you'll never beat the chicken.)
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 07:13 PM) *
I have a few video links that I use to explain AR to people, but the concept's gotten a LOT more exposure in the past five years, so I don't need to break 'em out very much.

Yeah. From the aforementioned Google Glass to Hololens, to AR offerings on phones etc.

Did you catch that question about the quality of the graphics/etc. on the ARO and whether they're photorealistic (as they are in Cybergeneration)? I ask because fun shenanigans can be had with such tech to wrong-foot 'runners. (I'm still making my way through some of the suggested books, including in this case Unwired to catch up with some of these answers.)

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 07:13 PM) *
In terms of speed... yes, speed of thought is greater than speed of hand. Not by *much* in many cases, but the difference between your synapse going "Do this" and it being done in VR and the same going "Do this" and it has to travel down the nervous system... [slight snip]

FWIW, that command can travel (apparently--not a medical doctor some I'm Googling) travels at 70-120 ms^-1 (pain receptors transmit at 0.5-2 ms^-1, so that command gets to the waggling thing (e.g. hand) real fast. Decision-making is the real slow down and that's not something that is going to be sped up.

Unless, cyber-magic?

That's where I get confuggled when it comes to VR applications in Rigging. The speed advantages would, on the face of it, seem minimal not because of the thought/brain/cyber pathway, but the decision-making process as well as how that translates over wireless, through a second computer system, and then translate that into mechanical actions.

The skill of the pilot seems to be dominant here, surely? What piece of the puzzle am I missing?

Again, though, decking is digital to digital so the improvement is there. Makes sense. If the hacker is skilled and the hardware top-notch, then there is some pseudo-science behind being able to make multiple actions within a segment of time that are much faster not only because of the "speed of thought" bit but presumably because they can send relatively complex commands without having to factor in the UI of the AR.

There's some hand-waving there, but there are going to be some technological impediments, such as the speed of the system that they're in. Quite how this translates to the speed of an actual advanced computer is... questionable. Still, it's a basis and makes in-game sense.

Rigging, not so much, but being able to control multiple drones/systems simultaneously is a pretty big deal anyway. (And there's reasons that you wouldn't want Wired Reflexes on while driving, too.)

No, that holds together.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 07:13 PM) *
(As an aside, if you've never had a chance to play Tic tac Toe against a chicken at a carnival or fair, you should. Be forwarned that you will NOT win. Tie maybe, but you'll never beat the chicken.)

I just caught that on a YouTube video. Impressive. Most impressive. O_o
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 6 2021, 08:27 PM) *
I just caught that on a YouTube video. Impressive. Most impressive. O_o


I'll give you a small hint on that one. Bird can see a wavelength spectrum that we can't and are taught that when they peck something that glows that color, they get food.

There's a reason I wrote the con jobs in the Face book. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 11:51 PM) *
I'll give you a small hint on that one. Bird can see a wavelength spectrum that we can't and are taught that when they peck something that glows that color, they get food.

There's a reason I wrote the con jobs in the Face book. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

And this is the reason that I like to come from a reality-based perspective first before adding on shenanigans. Sometimes K.I.S.S. is the best.
Cochise
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
(As an aside, if you've never had a chance to play Tic tac Toe against a chicken at a carnival or fair, you should. Be forwarned that you will NOT win. Tie maybe, but you'll never beat the chicken.)


Considering that a tie is actually the default game result for Tic Tac Toe why would it be a surprise to be unable to "win" against a chicken that is ...
  • ... heavily conditioned (positive reenforcement skinner box training) to peck at something (which is in most conveniently blocked from its opponent's direct sight in many cases in the present day implememtations) under an external guidance
  • ... guided by something its human opponent couldn't see even if his sight wasn't blocked in the first place


But here's the thing: Just one Google search and I found a video where the "chicken" in said con lost while on camera. So even the con-men doing these cons know that every once in a while the chicken must lose.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 6 2021, 05:13 PM) *
...

In terms of speed... yes, speed of thought is greater than speed of hand. Not by *much* in many cases, but the difference between your synapse going "Do this" and it being done in VR and the same going "Do this" and it has to travel down the nervous system, get to the right limb, which then reaches out and interacts with Thing (using eyes and spatial awareness to doublecheck that it's in the right place) is a bit slower, and when you're dealing with digital things, that matters.

...

Thought "macros" would speed things up even more.

And regarding the chicken con, gotta give the mark the impression that they've got a chance to win else you'll almost never have any players.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 7 2021, 04:10 PM) *
Thought "macros" would speed things up even more.

Oooh. That's a good point. You would have thought that I would have connected the dots as, while typing up the previous response, I had stacked up and saved an audio effects rack to make some post-production work easier. Doh!
SpellBinder
It was when I read Wakshaani mention speed I for some reason thought to my Steam copy of FF-VI where I've got macro keys programmed for Sabin's Blitz moves. I hit a single key and the input takes half a second.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 7 2021, 11:20 PM) *
It was when I read Wakshaani mention speed I for some reason thought to my Steam copy of FF-VI where I've got macro keys programmed for Sabin's Blitz moves. I hit a single key and the input takes half a second.

I have an entire separate keyboard with 128 keys dedicated to macros and I still didn't think about it. Ha ha.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 8 2021, 06:12 PM) *
I have an entire separate keyboard with 128 keys dedicated to macros and I still didn't think about it. Ha ha.


Yeah, and I'll give away a secret here.

ICE?

It *slows down* to deal with metahumans.

A codebreaking program, even today, can toss out millions of combinations a second if need be, but if there's a human involved, it has to crrrraaaaawwwwllll so that the human can look over the codes and see if anything's recognizable. You don't normally DO that, since the whole point of having a program do it is to do it quickly, but when it comes to the human element, code just sorta sighs and goes into braindead mode so that the fleshy chump can be involved.

In the Matrix? Same thing. Code is up there moving at lightspeed, taking care of business, but when a Human trots over and wants updates, it has to slow down to interact with them. Using a Cyberdeck, you're cheating the machine's going at Metahuman0friendly speeds, but you're trying to use your brain to go faster than a metahuman can go, in order to get an edge over the slowed-down system.

It's *weird*, but that's a secret to decking that's been baked in since day one, but never really gets talked about.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 8 2021, 11:20 PM) *
It's *weird*, but that's a secret to decking that's been baked in since day one, but never really gets talked about.

Nonononono.

You don't get to lay that smack down without a "Waaaah?" and me raising it to "Kaching nay one!"

This is fascinating and not a way that I had looked at it before and, for me, entirely the purpose of these kinds of threads (despite the upthread, errr, thing).

Seriously, it makes a whole bunch of sense. It's the cyberpunk equivalent of reCAPTCHA where you have to check out just how dumb an interloper is or whether their intention is nefarious. You cannot assume that a glitch in the system is automatically a bad actor because, well, humans are just plain dumb. Forget your password. Forget the protocols etc. A secure system cannot be so secure that it terminates the user. It's probably in the corp health plan somewhere, or an "oopsie" life insurance clause.

The army, after all, only marches as fast as it's slowest element, and society to, as Jim Jeffries might say, the dumber members.

You can argue that the answer to this is basically a transponder, but that's kind of the point. Fascinating.

So, on what part of this we've got the speed of reaction question (both from the hacker and the computer), but you have to figure in the "dumb monkey" part of the equation. And, well, AIs, too.

This is like sanctified bedding in my mind at the moment: Holy Sheet. wink.gif

My brain is currently going to notions of "response time" and figuring out just what it can mean in terms of some programmes' response times, system response times, and hacker interactions without frying dumb users.
Wakshaani
Yeah, it's why I take a roled-up magazine to people that want to put traps in common hallways.

"Doofus! People go through there ALL THE TIME! Those traps will kill everyone! You put them in places that people aren't *supposed* to be. This keeps your security guy from having to clean up a dead executive every couple of days.

"Hey Frank?"
"Oh man, ANOTHER one?"
"Yup. Marketing this time."
"Drek. Be right there."

ICE doesn't sniff out someone messing up a passwrd and go straight to ULTRABLACK!!! instantly it gives you every chance in the world to get the commands right, because dedicating all that processing power to swat someone hampers everything else.

Thus you get chokepoint-style security. Everyone that goes in the site gets their ID checked at the door. If it passes, you go inside and you can go all over the place without a problem, helps save on cycles. When you want to go into a different, more secure area, you get checked again. Most of the time, a failed check is just, "Sorry, you don't have permission to enter here." and done. Try it a few more times and, just like a credit card gets locked after so many failed PIn numbers, the ICE will log your ID and boot you until the ID gets cleaned, which means kicking it to an admin and just waiting.

Actually going into brainfry mode takes a while, since you have to give the slow monkies a chance to explain that, nono, they really *are* allowed to look at the research, I just bought new eyes and the retina scans don't match up yet.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 9 2021, 01:29 AM) *
"Hey Frank?"
"Oh man, ANOTHER one?"
"Yup. Marketing this time."
"Drek. Be right there."

Oh, god. This gives me so many yucks given how bastionised places of works can be. It's worthy of a web comic in and of itself!

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 9 2021, 01:29 AM) *
ICE doesn't sniff out someone messing up a passwrd and go straight to ULTRABLACK!!! instantly it gives you every chance in the world to get the commands right, because dedicating all that processing power to swat someone hampers everything else.

So, if you will forgive me for asking, how does Shadowrun handle this aspect. Unwired is first on my reading tablet but, well, work.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 9 2021, 01:29 AM) *
Thus you get chokepoint-style security.

Which sounds much better than how SR2 handled it.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 9 2021, 01:29 AM) *
Everyone that goes in the site gets their ID checked at the door. If it passes, you go inside and you can go all over the place without a problem, helps save on cycles. When you want to go into a different, more secure area, you get checked again.

FWIW, I have the privilege of working with people in the security industry. Our last discussion was talking about modelling "defense in depth" (and how I wanted to use Venn Diagrams for this) and how he preferred to use Systems Theory.

Fascinating discussion even with the mind-bending articles that I've been sent. My personal goal was to figure out how to use this in SR. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 9 2021, 01:29 AM) *
Most of the time, a failed check is just, "Sorry, you don't have permission to enter here." and done. Try it a few more times and, just like a credit card gets locked after so many failed PIn numbers, the ICE will log your ID and boot you until the ID gets cleaned, which means kicking it to an admin and just waiting.

I like this, but, question: Is this actually how it works in SR?
Wakshaani
Sortakinda, but some areas replace "Lock yoru ID" with "Melt your brain" necause MCT is an ass like that.

Regardless, this is why you have things like a host having different levels of response as a decker builds up more failures. Each one brings more scrutiny and the penalties for failure get more harsh. When the host finally sighs and goes, "Alright, this monkey has failed one verification after another. FLag 'em." and goes into ICE mode, it has to dedicate resources to swatting the bug. If more things crop up, it goes into red alert mode, figuring that it's not just an intrusion but an *attack* and then the gloves come off.

Sr5 and 6 add in GOD, who get contacted and boot a user, but same general concept.

When it comes to Matrix activity, deckers aren't gods anymore they're mice. They're mice scuttling through a big house full of things going on that don't care about them at ALL, but if they make themselves known, they get scooped up and tossed outside by most homes. Others set out traps.

Regardless, metahumanity don't really belong in the current Matrix (Matrix 3.0 for the record) it's for computers and metahumans are just sort of hitchhiking on it.
Iduno
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 9 2021, 01:49 AM) *
So, if you will forgive me for asking, how does Shadowrun handle this aspect. Unwired is first on my reading tablet but, well, work.


Unwired is one of the weird books where using it makes the archetypes it interacts with less powerful. So ignore it unless your decker is starting out with level 5/6 stuff and will need a challenge (and then, you'd still need to integrate Unwired in chargen). It also requires more resources just to exist as a decker with Unwired, so make sure you have enough players that the decker can afford to be less useful doing anything else.


QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ Feb 9 2021, 01:49 AM) *
FWIW, I have the privilege of working with people in the security industry. Our last discussion was talking about modelling "defense in depth" (and how I wanted to use Venn Diagrams for this) and how he preferred to use Systems Theory.


I think the in-game explanation is that you're using autonomous programs who are handling all of that in the background, and the VR is just showing you a metaphor/representation of what is going on so your metahuman brain can understand it. The out-of-game explanation is that it's a lot of game slowdown for little to no gain. Same reason you don't have a lockpicking or spell research minigame, it's just a skill roll.
SpellBinder
Regarding the traps in common hallways, I was reminded of a more obscure entry of Murphy's Laws: "Make it hard for the enemy to get in and you make it hard to get out." or something like that.
Wakshaani
Yeah, this is why chokepoints are the better method.

Slow things down in the bottleneck, let people inside the bottle do whatever. Repeat for each "bottle" of secure areas and feel free to use "fake" security inside for instance, a simple ID reader at the elevator, or a front desk where a secretary note sall who come. go, and so on, who has a panic button, so everyone feels secure knowing that "If there's a problem, security will handle it".
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Feb 10 2021, 11:34 AM) *
Yeah, this is why chokepoints are the better method.

Slow things down in the bottleneck, let people inside the bottle do whatever. Repeat for each "bottle" of secure areas and feel free to use "fake" security inside for instance, a simple ID reader at the elevator, or a front desk where a secretary note sall who come. go, and so on, who has a panic button, so everyone feels secure knowing that "If there's a problem, security will handle it".

Which is where Shadowrun does well with creating an analog for physical security.
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