Recently revived an old SR3 campaign I play in. Also been GM'ing 4th ed these last few years so my brain is a jumble of rules.

I've been rereading SR3 astral space and am confused about something. They mention that astral objects are things like barriers and foci that only riposte if attacked.

Where do sustained area effect spells come in? and what is the net effect of being inside the area effect beyond the effect of the spell itself?

Ex: Let's say a fully astral mage is facing 2 force 4 spirits in astral space. He drops a sustained area effect mana spell like say foreboding 4. Now my question isn't about how the foreboding spells affects the intended targets. my question is that now essentially the mage is now inside a (let's say) 6 meter radius force 4 spell that as far as I can tell is very much present and visible in astral space. Is it considered an astral object? What effect would it have on say your perception if you suddenly found yourself enveloped inside a sustained spells area effect in astral space?

Hola,

Shamanic lodges (p166 SR3), Hermetic circles that are active (P167 SR3) and Wards (P174 SR3) all appear as barriers on the astral, imposing a visual penalty = force on anyone trying to perceive in/out/through them, unless you are the creator. Casting spells through a barrier adds the Force of the barrier to the TN of the spell.

The discussion on Astral Objects (P176 SR3) mostly covers barriers (wards, lodges and circles) and foci, and doesn't mention spells at all, but does detail how you supress the force down to zero, can hold it there to allow others to pass and then release it, or make an extra test vs F X 2 to destroy the object.

There's no mention of sustained spells creating any kind of astral footprint / object in the base discussion of spell durations (P178 SR3)

The Dispelling rules on P184 detail that you must be able to see the target of the spell, and be on the same plane - so it's quite clear that a sustained spell does have a visible component on the astral plane, and can be easily spotted / observed.

It's an interesting one. I think my gut call would be that a sustained spell does appear as an astral entity/object, and can be affected by any rules / effects / abilities that apply to those - but that as a sustained spell held in place only by the casters (or a sustaining foci) ongoing concentration, it lacks the power / permanency of a regular astral object, and only uses F/2 as a modifier for perception tests, or for increasing the TN for spells cast through it. It uses its force as normal for resisting dispelling or for being attacked by astral combatants.
That seems reasonable - a F6 chaos spell cast on a doorway that the police are trying to come through, would also give +3 modifiers to any astral observers - assuming they were coming through the door at all, of course.

Hola Kren, was waiting for you to answer, thanks.

You landed in the same vicinity I did but I was left with a lingering nagging thought.

If the sustained spell is to be considered as an astral object then does that not open the door to attacking and subsequently taking down any and all sustained spells from astral space?

This seems like a "big ticket" item and not one that they would just completely fail to address. So for game balance purposes I would be tempted to apply the F/2 modifier to perception but would not allow it to be treated as an astral object and taking it down would require the use of dispelling and not just "attacking" the object.

Standard dispelling rules would apply meaning you can only "take down" spells if you can see the target and are on the same plane. So in this case the target is the area (for say a detection spell being sustained) and provided it was cast to affect astral space and you were in astral space yourself, you could dispel it but if it was detecting for enemies in the physical world than you would need to be physical as well.

So in most cases since those spells primarily affect the physical world, sustained area effect spells would just be visible, imposing a F/2 perception modifier within or beyond but unable to be affected as astral objects.
They would therefore be just another astral nuisance but no one will be going around stun bolting armor spells and reflex boosters down.

Thoughts?

As you already found out: In terms of RAW not as a form of astral object with a "physically" tangible astral body of their own that could be engaged with astral combat.
However, the spell does have a visible aura that can be assensed normally to determine spell purpose, force, etc. and the casting magician will (temporarily) leave his signature on the affected part of astral space just as he would when casting in the physical world.



Rulewise there simply isn't any further effect beyond the spell effect itself. No modifier to visibility on the astral plane. Neither within the area of effect nor when looking into or outside the area of effect.

Hence:



No



None




The separation of the planes prohibts that. A sustained spell that was cast on the physical plane is (only) visible via its aura (just as a sustained spell on the astral plane would be). In either case there's still no astral object to be attacked.
At least that's what it is in SR3. In prior editions spells indeed has some form of "physicallized" astral body which allowed them to be attacked / intercepted in astral combat.

I had a chat with the wife (Tads in my campaign, the team mage) while we were out walking the dog, and she raised a good point - if you do apply the F/2 (or any other for that matter) visibility modifier, then you're effectively making spells like Astral Static or Astral Barrier much less useful, as the point of those spells are somewhat duplicated / supplanted.

So, on reflection I'd go with the "no, it's not an astral object, it's just an aura that can be assenssed for info" as per the last few comments. As was pointed out, opening the door for just attacking spells rather than having to use the dispelling rules / mechanism is a dangerous door to open.

Yup... I don't like it... seems off to me that it have no effect whatsoever but that does indeed look like the way it's gotta be...thanks all.

When you think of spells in the astral being more of a "Wow, that's...Obvious!"rather than, "Clear the Room, FLASHBANG", it's easier to explain the concept.

And yes, I use Astral lodges and Circles as the "Magical Pillow Forts" of the 6th World.

BTW, anyone you know golbinize?
Apart from my brother's kids?



-Tir.

What if an active (area effect?) spell created a background count?

Like Mana Static? Then you'd have a background count and the caster would be in it until they left. The background count would deplete over time. Sustained spells in its area would have their Force suppressed by the background count (congesting the flow of mana?).

Although astral "sight" is the ability to sense life and mana as if they were light, no mention is made of being saturated by the amount of "light" (like flare compensation helps to mitigate). If you cast Detect Life in a brewery you're going to have countless life forms within range and that might be difficult to process but it doesn't "blind" you. A Chaos spell on the physical plane is just a visible magical effect from the astral plane and is why astral perceivers can see magically invisible physical subjects/targets because they are a beacon of mana from the astral. It doesn't blind you to look at them like a welding torch - it's just like they're all wrapped up in christmas tree lights while other people are alive but not decked out in christmas lights.

In 3rd ed, transparent glass and sunnies and windows and helmet visors are all transparent from the astral because their purpose and intent is to be so. I believe that was changed in subsequent editions to say everything has an opaque astral shadow. There are also alchera in TAL 58, 113 (terrain) and astral constructs (TAL 102) which can materialise from the astral to the physical plane. So you could have an astrally projecting mage grab a materialised astral chair and throw it around the room on the physical plane. These constructs would be opaque and could impose perception penalties.