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Ka_ge2020
Over the years I've been tinkering around with different systems in the hopes of creating an interpretation of the Shadowrun meta-setting. I have failed to find the "perfect" system, which included GURPS, until I stopped trying to get it perfect. The "good enough" would, I told myself, suffice. The reality of this is that I'm probably still aiming too high--still over-thinking things--but I'm now forcing myself to write concrete details and mechanics down.

This is what I (pretentiously, I know) call "The Ages of Magic and Shadow" using GURPS 4e. The goal was to have a single approach to the meta-setting (thus, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, and Equinox) that didn't just offer three different rule variations for the different settings. Thus, one magic system to rule/fail them all, one approach to technology etc.

As you might imagine, headaches have ensued.

I'm getting close to finishing things, but the one problem that I have is that it is difficult to find someone that is fluent in both the meta-setting and the rules that I'm using. Hence this thread.

* * *

What I would like to do is offer some basic information on how I have, or have tried, to solve Shadowrun (etc.) specific "things" in GURPS and see how the stack up to your background knowledge as it is informed by the mechanics. Things that I have done are going to be weird, but there are reasons for it in m mind that make sense to me but might not make sense to y'all.

My hopes is that be brining them to this thread I can with your help get that good shifting towards "perfect" even if it never gets there.

What I would like from y'all is the Shadowrun (etc.) side of the equation, but if you do have thoughts on the GURPS side of things then I'm all ears.

* * *

Interested?

If so, I'll start with spellslinging--Sorcery.
Ka_ge2020
So, I had never seen an interpretation of Shadowrun's Sorcery (spellslinging) that I've liked. Over the years I've explored skill-based magic (yack!), pure Power-based (too expensive), Ritual Path Magic using a customed approach to Western Magic Tradition and elemental correspondences (love, but couldn't get it to work), etc.

Finally, though, PK Levine wrote a hack of Modular Abilities that I think works really quite well. Here are the highlights:

  • Is bought in levels.
  • The cost of the different "levels" translates over to how much you can spend on spells and how "powerful" they are.
  • You even get some ability to throw small spells "off the cuff" for free (bonus).


On the other hand:

  • It has fixed Fatigue ("drain") cost.
  • There is currently no ability to buy "powerful" spells that go beyond your "level".


* * *

Okay. So a "starting" spellslinger would require a Magic of 6, which would require six levels of Sorcerous Empowerment (aka, Sorcery). This is a 70-point chunk for your starting character points, but you're also going to have to pony up for Astral Sight 3 and Astral Travel 4 (costs another 71! points). I've no idea of starting points at the moment because that's going to depend on the power level of the campaign (and GURPS is notoriously bad for this; I'll be cribbing from books like Action! and Monster Hunters for some guidance).

Other than the astral plane shenanigans, this gets you a cap of 70 points to build a spell using Powers and a total of 70 points to spend on spells. With Sorcery, you buy the spell as a "Power" and then divide the cost by five (5) for the final cost. So a spell that costs 40 points to build only ends up costing the character 8 points (leaving you 62 points to spend). If the spell cost 72 points to build, however, you cannot take that with Sorcery 6 (at the moment).

Note: The 70-point cap on spells is arbitrarily determined. There may yet be a reason to lower it to, say, half the points spent (or 35 points in this case) for either spell build, purchase, or both. That's up in the air at the moment and would require a specific mage build here to look at. (That is, coming later for your consideration if there is feedback to the thread.)

* * *

And, err, that's basically it. There are no real guidelines/rails for building spells other than the Shadowrun book(s) if you go down that route, or any thematic guidelines imposed by the player/GM based upon the Tradition.

I still have in the back of my mind the aforementioned Western Elements and Correspondences of Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Eitr that I want to bring in. I would imagine at the very least they're going to "aspect" the spells/magic in some way. Here's the basic table that I came up for what was the Ritual Path Magic version but which is now kind of hanging out trying to find a new purpose:

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52855629322_f01d0b81f2_b.jpg[/img]gurps_sr_elements by Matthew Kage, on Flickr

(I guess pics don't work here...)
Ka_ge2020
Now that I think about it, it might be fun to have someone who is interested (I know; crickets at the moment) to post a mage character that I would have to try and parallel?
Kesendeja
Thaumatology: Sorcery has worked fairly well in my GURPS Shadowrun game. It keeps Mages in check when compared to cyber/bio characters (they also buy Powers to represent their augments.) And there is a web site that has all of the spells translated to powers. I've left a link below if you want to look at it. I have house ruled mine a bit, but if you're intrested I can send you the list of changes. (My game is mostly Hooders, and has been going on 5+ years with no major problems, just a few WTF moments because of way to creative players.

Spell translations by Uneversal Eggplant

I'd love to see what you've put together.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Kesendeja @ May 1 2023, 07:21 AM) *
Thaumatology: Sorcery has worked fairly well in my GURPS Shadowrun game. It keeps Mages in check when compared to cyber/bio characters (they also buy Powers to represent their augments.) And there is a web site that has all of the spells translated to powers. I've left a link below if you want to look at it. I have house ruled mine a bit, but if you're intrested I can send you the list of changes.

Colour me more than interested. I'll send you a PM with my email address so that you don't have to go through that whole email, wait for a response etc. thing.

Care to give me the highlights in the thread?

QUOTE (Kesendeja @ May 1 2023, 07:21 AM) *

I had these, but thank you nonetheless. They're certainly a good place to start.

QUOTE (Kesendeja @ May 1 2023, 07:21 AM) *
I'd love to see what you've put together.

I'm more than willing to share. I'm just getting to the point where I'm writing things down and have to make sure that I'm careful with what I share as some of the materials haven't been published yet. (This is mostly in the Ritual Magic and related materials space.)

* * *

If no one is interested in posting the Shadowrun character I'll have a gander myself. I guess I've got to get used to it anyway as there are a number of different magic users (etc.) that I will otherwise be wanting to post.

I guess I would go with SR4?
Kagetenshi
I could offer Belial if you want a stress-test:

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 20 2012, 11:44 AM) *
For Magician's Way Adepts, remember that Magic Loss hits Magical Power first, and that if you ever hit 0 Magical Power you can never buy more and are henceforth a crippled ordinary Adept. I get the feeling that many GMs never actually bother checking for Magic Loss (at least in situations where the player isn't blatantly and deliberately risking it, like using stimpatches), but unless you can guarantee that it's a big risk.

That said, there's no One True Path to power. Major choices to be made include what your role is going to be, how you're going to accomplish that role, etc. etc. etc.

For one example, here's a mage character I built (128 BP, for a game expected to be short):

CODE
Belial

Aspected Seductress Shaman Sorcerer (+2 dice Illusion, +2 dice Control Manipulation, Willpower(6) test to avoid self-indulgence)

    Attributes:

Strength: 6

Body: 4

Quickness: 6

Intelligence: 6

Willpower: 7

Charisma: 6

Reaction: 6 +1d6

Essence: 5.4

Bio Index: .4

Magic: 5

    Pools:

Combat Pool: 9/9

Spell Pool: 6/6

Karma Pool: 1/1

Good Karma: 0

Total karma: 0

    Skills:

Athletics 4

Polearms 6

Shotguns 6

Sorcery 6

Etiquette 2

    Bioware:

Trauma Damper (.4)

Any physical damage has one box shifted to Stun. Any stun damage has one box removed.

    Cyberware:

Smartlink-II (alpha, .4)

Cybereyes (.2)

Thermographic Vision (in cybereyes)

Low-Light Vision (in cybereyes)

Flare Compensation (in cybereyes)

    Spells:

Treat 3 (Exclusive, cost)

Increase Reflexes +2 1

Physical Camouflage 1

Stealth 1

Physical Mask 1

Foreboding 6 (Fetish, drain)

Hot Potato 6 (Fetish, drain)

Control Actions 6 (Fetish, drain)

Control Thoughts 6 (Fetish, drain)

Gecko Crawl 5

    Gear:

    Weapons:

Franchi SPAS-22

Conc. 2(4), Ammo 10(m), SA/BF, 10S, 4kg, RC 0(1)

Smartlink-2, folding stock

Franchi SPAS-22 (Sawed-Off)

Conc. 4(6), Ammo 10(m), SA/BF, 9S, 3kg, RC 0(1)

Smartlink-2, folding stock, heavy pistol range

Shotgun slugs (x100)

Shotgun shot shells (x100)

Bola rounds (x20)

Shock Lock rounds (x20)

Stun Shells (x40)

Flare rounds (x40)

Bayonet (as Knife when detached)

Underbarrel, Conc. -1, .75kg

Telescoping Staff

Conc. 5/2, Reach 2, (STR+2)M Stun, 3kg

Spear

Conc. 2, Reach 2, (STR+4)L, 2kg

Flash-Pak (x4)

Conc. 12, .2kg

Causes +4 TN to anyone facing, +2 with Flare Compensation. If used in darkness, relieves darkness penalties but imposes own +2 TN penalty.

    Clothing/Armor:

Ordinary clothing (3 sets)

Fine Clothing

Forearm Guards

Conc. 12, Ball. 0, Imp. 1, .2kg

Secure Jacket

Conc. 9, Ball. 5, Imp. 3, 3kg

Longcoat

Conc. 8, Ball. 4, Imp. 2, 1kg

Rapid Transit Heavy Jumpsuit

Conc. 6, Ball. 2, Imp. 4, 2kg

Form-Fitting Body Armor (Full)

Conc. 12, Ball. 4, Imp. 1, 1.25kg

    Misc. Gear:

Tranceiver (R6)

Conc. 8, 1kg

Subvocal Mic

Conc. 12

Stimpatch (R6) (x4)

Tranqpatch (R10) (x3)

Psyche (x4)

Ingestion, speed 10 minutes, addict. 4M, tolerance 2, edge 10/20, fix factor 1 wk

+1 Intelligence for 12-Body hours, Awakened users temporarily gain Focused Concentration

Zen (x12)

Inhalation, speed 5*d6 minutes, addict. 3M, tolerance 2, edge 5/50, fix factor 2 days

-2 Reaction, +1 Physical TNs, +1 Willpower for 10 x d6 minutes.

Cram (x5)

Insufflation, speed 10 minutes, addict. 4M, tolerance 2, edge 5/50, fix factor 2 days

+1 Reaction, +1d6 Initiative for 12-Body hours. User suffers M wound for equal time on crash.



    Magical Gear:

Illusion Fetish: ring with silver band and pale blue stone. Beli wears this around his neck on a thin silver chain, generally inside his clothing.

Manipulation Fetish: plain, unadorned ring made of a thin ebony band. Often worn on the same chain as the illusion fetish, though Beli sometimes wears it on his hand for luck.

Sustaining Focus (F1, Increase Reflexes +2): a modified Sephiroth carved in ebony and inlaid with obsidian. Astoundingly difficult to read in all but the best light.

    Contacts:

Vass (Human magical researcher/talismonger, L1)

Gaap (Human mage/information dealer, L1)

    Lifestyles:

Low (4 months)

Low (2 months)

    Edges/Flaws:

Focused Concentration (2): TN mod for sustaining spells reduced to +1, can sustain up to Sorcery+1 Spells at once.

Bad Karma (-5): requires double the standard karma earning to gain karma pool.

Combat Monster (-1): takes 3 turns to break off from combat other than through victory, reduced by successes on a Willpower(6) test.


He's a Combat Mage built on using Hot Potato to disarm ranged opponents, Foreboding for area denial, and Gecko Crawl to close to melee from unexpected directions and at surprising speed, with some more stuff thrown in for utility. I present him as an example partly because I'm proud of him, but also because he illustrates the diversity of possible mage buildsóconsider that he fills the broad role of "combat mage" without a single combat spell.

That said, the big thing is the Trauma Damper, which is very nearly -1DL for all Drain tests. It's so revoltingly good that nerfing it is a high SR3R priority, right up there with Enhanced Artwinkulation and Chipjack Expert Drivers. Once you have part of a point of Virtual Essence Loss, you may as well spend the rest of the pointóvision modifications are especially good, as no non-Cyber gear helps spell LoS.


~J
Ka_ge2020
That's great!

Can I push my luck and ask if that comes on a character sheet? nyahnyah.gif

I presume that this is a "starting" character?

First blush is that it has lots to get teeth sunk into. Again, thanks! biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
Thatís the format I used for characters back in the day, copied straight out of an RTF fileóno separate character sheet version, Iím afraid.

Itís a fresh-out-of-chargen character, SR3 SRComp Build Points generation. Itís 128BP which was the standard for my group back in the day but is a bit generousó125, 123, or even 120 were not uncommonóbut not dramatically so.

~J
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 07:14 AM) *
Thatís the format I used for characters back in the day, copied straight out of an RTF fileóno separate character sheet version, Iím afraid.

No worries. 'Twas just me being lazy. smile.gif

If I'm going to use this the character, I'm going to have to throw out some quick caveats:

  • The "seductress" component would have me worried as a GM. Then again, I have recollections of back in the day when the term "pornomancer" was being bandied around. smile.gif
  • Shaman were one of the things that were done much violence with SR, so I'm stripping them out.
  • Closest thing to "shaman" will be the poorly-named "Spirit Sworn" whose primary benefit is a reduction in cost of their abilities--no buffs to spells etc. (TBF, I haven't really tinkered around with how Traditions are going to work, so obviously flaw there on my behalf.)
  • Ditto on magical items, which needs to be integrated with other subsystems/settings.
  • The stats will likely change. My brain is telling me that SR4 says that you only get one stat at '6'.
  • The "Hot Potato" spell seems wildly abusive, so can be equally abused, e.g. there's likely a lot of material that people consider to be "metal" that is not, actually, metal.
  • Are One Trick Ponies really illustrative of anything but breaks?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ May 2 2023, 09:54 AM) *
If I'm going to use this the character, I'm going to have to throw out some quick caveats:

  • The "seductress" component would have me worried as a GM. Then again, I have recollections of back in the day when the term "pornomancer" was being bandied around. smile.gif

That was SR4 (admittedly it started with SotA64 in SR3) and was about Social Adepts, not Seductress Shamans smile.gif the idea was that you throw so many dice (and in the SotA64 version have so many TN mods) that you can talk anyone into bed in any circumstance, or convince a Hostile Enemy to do something they can recognize will be Disastrous for them.

Edit: ok, SR4 Adepts could have Totems and Seductress was indeed used, but the fact remains that youíre thinking of something entirely different.

QUOTE
  • Shaman were one of the things that were done much violence with SR, so I'm stripping them out.
  • Closest thing to "shaman" will be the poorly-named "Spirit Sworn" whose primary benefit is a reduction in cost of their abilities--no buffs to spells etc. (TBF, I haven't really tinkered around with how Traditions are going to work, so obviously flaw there on my behalf.)
  • Ditto on magical items, which needs to be integrated with other subsystems/settings.

The character is very much built around the Totem and its mechanical benefitsóif Seductress didnít give boni to Illusion and Control Manipulation I probably wouldíve swapped something, maybe Control Actions, for Manabolt, and if the totem wasnít all about self-indulgence I definitely wouldnít have a bunch of pharmaceuticals in my gear list. For that matter I think the whole reason that heís an Aspected Sorcerer with 6 Charisma is because itís a Seductress Totem requirement.

QUOTE
  • The stats will likely change. My brain is telling me that SR4 says that you only get one stat at '6'.

SR4 says that, but SR4 also values stats (and skills) entirely differently from SR3. An SR4 stat is roughly equivalent to a point in every single linked skill you have at least one point in already; an SR3 stat is sometimes a fraction of a die of pool, sometimes a bit of movement rate, sometimes a bit more lifting ability, a few TN mods (mostly Charisma), some damage/drain/spell resistance, and the ability to not pay through the nose on linked skills. Donít use SR4 instincts on SR3 or vice versa, it will not serve you well.

This is getting long so Iím going to post and edit in remaining replies to avoid the possibility of the browser eating it.

QUOTE
  • The "Hot Potato" spell seems wildly abusive, so can be equally abused, e.g. there's likely a lot of material that people consider to be "metal" that is not, actually, metal.

If you want to go down that road, anyone who doesnít drop their bones and empty out their blood (calcium and iron) suffers +Successes TN up to Force, and this is in addition to rather than instead of the test to not drop what theyíre holding.vegm.gif

But itís a six-meter radius, Sustained, and not subtle. The Streetsam can get a similar result out of a grenade launcher.

QUOTE
  • Are One Trick Ponies really illustrative of anything but breaks?

The breaks are in service of doing something really weird effectively. Honestly, the instant you saw Gecko Crawl instead of Levitate you probably should have been tipped off smile.gif

I consider this to be an example of what kind of reasonably effective offbeat mages you can make in SR3. The fact that I had to exploit the system pretty hard to do so is an indictment of sorts, but I was able to do it, and I think ďcan you make something this weirdĒ is not a bad question to ask of an attempt to capture Shadowrun in another system.

~J
Kren Cooper
Couple of magical characters from my games in case they are any use, on our standard character sheet...

Kane - Voodoo Shaman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ictc3h29gb95x2h/J...0Kane.xlsx?dl=0
Fang - Fire Bringer Shaman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t6i3xi3s6fzl3a/K...0Fang.xlsx?dl=0
T-whiz - Aspected Sorcerer: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t6i3xi3s6fzl3a/K...0Fang.xlsx?dl=0
Grimmy - Dog Shaman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/udaqn5h4hfdxazr/L...izard.xlsx?dl=0
Dak - Hermetic full mage: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycn1yxa0x5egqcq/D...tt%29.xlsx?dl=0
Wraith - Hermetic full mage: https://www.dropbox.com/s/h8fawkny3lfc7ax/W...tt%29.xlsx?dl=0
pbangarth
That looks like a healthy list. If you burn through that and need more, I can fire over a couple from SR3/4A.
Ka_ge2020
I'm going to try and not wax lyrical in this reply, so hopefully this doesn't come off as brusque. That is not my intent.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 11:12 AM) *
That was SR4

... [snip]...

For reference, I haven't played/GMd SR since the days of SR2 back in the early-to-mid-1990s, so the notion of "system knowledge" and making mistakes is simultaneously laughable and totally true. I had last night started to read through SR4 as some quick Googling seemed to suggest that this was the most popular edition, rightly or wrongly. (This is where I noted the "one stat at 6" thing, not because it was in some other book in another edition or buried in another 4e setting book: just right in the core book.)

Oh, the original SR4--not the Anniversary edition, FWIW.

On What I Want to Achieve...
What I had wanted to achieve here was to get SR-fan eyes on to my "project" to offer a different perspective from my own and the system specialists that I've been working with. The latter tend to get flummoxed when I say "That doesn't fit the setting" even if for them it's a completely satisfactory mechanical solution.

As this is an interpretation in a different system, there are going to be some changes including two mentioned herein:

  • Shamans are not going to work as they do in the original system, primarily because I think that the authors did great disservice to anthropological examples of "shaman". Herein, I will deal with "Spirit Sworn" which will actually include Earthdawn's "Questors".
  • The system exploits in SR (or ED or EQ) are not going to be present in this interpretation. Different system after all. (And why take the sorrows with the sweets, as it were.)


A part of the above is in how I handle character generation for (especially) online games: I use a semi-subjective system supported by Fudge's adjective ladder to guide player's for creating their concept in the setting at hand. This tends to mean that character's give subjective, in-setting reasons for having a "thing" rather than mechanical ones that may focus around effect or niche optimisation.

So...
...This probably means that asking for a character that might explore mechanical exploits is not as useful to me than having someone going through what I might consider a more usual character generation process. ("Throwing the book" at a player, whether they know it or not, is one of the bigger crimes in TTRPGs IMO.)

And this is likely too big of an ask here as I still have numerous decisions to put into play to make this an efficient process, e.g. skills (how detailed a tree is it going to be, how are deatailed skills going to relate to Wildcard skills etc.).

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 11:12 AM) *
Edit: ok, SR4 Adepts could have Totems and Seductress was indeed used, but the fact remains that you’re thinking of something entirely different.

I think that I answer this in the above insofar as:

  • I have not worked out how I want Traditions to work and, regardless, preferences for subjective character generation make mechanical enforcement less relevant;
  • "Seductress" is a mechanical premise that could be rebuilt, but would likely make it a very different beast to the SR3 version. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective.


QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 11:12 AM) *
SR4 says that, but SR4 also values stats (and skills) entirely differently from SR3... [snip, etc.]

As above, I think that this goes beyond both my specific knowledge and what I need to succeed in this project. Knowing what a "seductress" concept is happens to be different to how SR achieves it.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 11:12 AM) *
If you want to go down that road, anyone who doesn’t drop their bones and empty out their blood (calcium and iron) suffers +Successes TN up to Force, and this is in addition to rather than instead of the test to not drop what they’re holding.

TBH, I had never heard of the spell. With that said, my reaction to the Googled summary was, I feel, quite reasonable. Not accepting that modern weapons contain non-metallic handles (etc.) doesn't require the pivot to Ca and Fe in the bloodstream to substantiate its existence.

Again, though. Never heard of it before you typed it up and had to Google it. The reaction was knee-jerk.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 11:12 AM) *
The breaks are in service of doing something really weird effectively. Honestly, the instant you saw Gecko Crawl instead of Levitate you probably should have been tipped off smile.gif

Why? I have absolutely no basis to make this determination. "Levitation" would imply floatiness, while "Gecki Crawl" implies reptilian side-to-side crawling on the ceiling/wall (and occasionally into cooling fans in a restaurant to cover its patrons, or at least so experience tells me).

QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ May 2 2023, 11:20 AM) *
Couple of magical characters from my games in case they are any use, on our standard character sheet...

Thank you. The link to the Fire Bringer Shaman is the same as for the Aspected Sorcerer, BTW.

* * *

TL;DR -- I may have to find someone willing to go through the character generation process, or perhaps just use the old text-based conversations of my players as they were--some time ago--going through the subjective character generation process.
Ka_ge2020
QUOTE (pbangarth @ May 2 2023, 04:57 PM) *
That looks like a healthy list. If you burn through that and need more, I can fire over a couple from SR3/4A.

I think that, as above, I would have to model someone building a "mage" from the get-go. This would mean following the same general structure but not using the SR mechanics. As above, that's probably too big of an ask.

With that said, I may yet take you up on that offer, so thank you very much.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Ka_ge2020 @ May 2 2023, 06:29 PM) *
So...
...This probably means that asking for a character that might explore mechanical exploits is not as useful to me than having someone going through what I might consider a more usual character generation process. ("Throwing the book" at a player, whether they know it or not, is one of the bigger crimes in TTRPGs IMO.)

For the record, that was a real character that I made and intended to play in a real campaign. It was not an exercise in system-breaking. To the extent that I do exploit the system itís because I set out to do something that the mechanics didnít make easy (huge drain issues on all of the core spells except maybe Hot Potato which isnít great as a spell compared to, say, Manaball) and ended up needing to dent the system to make it work. This is a result of my usual chargen process. The one true exploit I built it around was the knowledge that it was for a short campaign, so I could be a bit less rounded, do a few more stupid things like Cursed Karma or combat drugs (which would render the character mundane in months and dead in a year or soóSR3 addiction rules were hardcore).

QUOTE
  • I have not worked out how I want Traditions to work and, regardless, preferences for subjective character generation make mechanical enforcement less relevant;
  • "Seductress" is a mechanical premise that could be rebuilt, but would likely make it a very different beast to the SR3 version. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective.

As above, I think that this goes beyond both my specific knowledge and what I need to succeed in this project. Knowing what a "seductress" concept is happens to be different to how SR achieves it.

So the thing is, Seductress or not totems have consequences both mechanically and thematically. Essentially any Shaman is going to be built around their totem for both crunch and fluff, and the decisions made everywhere else are going to spring from that decision. You asked for magical characters, but it really sounds like only hermetics are actually useful to you.

Likewise, my point is that the Pornomancer is built around the SR4 Seductress mentor, which gives +2 dice to Con tests. The SR3 Seductress does not give bonus dice or TN mods to any skill, and thus it was not useful for anything equivalent to the Pornomancer. For that matter, Adepts couldnít have totems in SR3. You expressed a concern, and I tried to explain why that concern wasnít relevant.

More generally, Shadowrun is a very distinctive system with mechanics that drive flavor, and Characters made by experienced players will reflect those distinctive elements. Youíre unlikely to get Trolls who have no use for Strength or Body, and youíre unlikely to get mages whose mechanical advantages and disadvantages are irrelevant to their concept.

QUOTE
TBH, I had never heard of the spell. With that said, my reaction to the Googled summary was, I feel, quite reasonable. Not accepting that modern weapons contain non-metallic handles (etc.) doesn't require the pivot to Ca and Fe in the bloodstream to substantiate its existence.

It was not a particularly reasonable reaction, though taking into account just how out of SR practice you are does explain some of it. Itís a spell that makes people drop things that directly competes with not-much-harder-to-cast spells that make people fall unconscious or die, or with grenades for that matter. I think my reaction to ďwell actually those guns arenít metalĒ, being to then say ďwell if thatís how weíre playing it your bones and blood areĒ was quite proportionate.


QUOTE
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 12:12 PM) *
The breaks are in service of doing something really weird effectively. Honestly, the instant you saw Gecko Crawl instead of Levitate you probably should have been tipped off smile.gif

Why? I have absolutely no basis to make this determination. "Levitation" would imply floatiness, while "Gecki Crawl" implies reptilian side-to-side crawling on the ceiling/wall (and occasionally into cooling fans in a restaurant to cover its patrons, or at least so experience tells me).

Gecko Crawl is almost strictly worse than Levitate as a spell. Same difficulty, same damage code, you canít use it on inanimate objects, involuntary subjects arenít inconvenienced by it, itís limited by surfaces instead of operating in empty space, the speed is the same, the one and only thing it has going for it is that it doesnít get harder if you pass 100kg. Itís the magical equivalent of specializing in Light Pistols.

But again, I failed to take into account just how out of practice you were with Shadowrun.

Anyway, I think itís clear that the things I value in the game are not the things you value in it (I guess the GURPS conversion was the giant billboard that I ignored) so Iíll leave you to it.

~J
Ka_ge2020
Gah! Gaming computer chose tonight to go belly up, leaving me typing on the tiny keyboard of a Lenovo Fold. Typos galore, I expect.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 09:44 PM) *
For the record, that was a real character that I made...

Indeed. I noted that, but also that it was for a truncated game (one-off, pick-up etc.). My bad for the assumption, but I was merely working with the notion that the choices that one makes for such a game might not reflect choices that one might make for a longer, more involved game/campaign.

That and it let me get into the subjective character generation that I prefer as a way of getting away from mechanical exploits and optimisation. smile.gif

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 09:44 PM) *
So the thing is, Seductress or not totems have consequences both mechanically and thematically.

You will note that I have said numerously that I felt that Shaman were done a great disservice (or "violence") in SR. As such, how they are handled, and how what is functionally a Tradition is handled in general, is something that I'm still mulling over. For example, whether it is handled by a "Talent", multiple "Talents" etc. remains up for grabs. Similarly, what are the implications for ED? Is this something where a single mechanic can be employed rather than two or more exceptions being made.

So, while "Shaman" will be a thing, just how remains to be seen. Certainly, however, the specific variants from SR would have to be reworked and the mechanical exploits would have to be evaluated and either specifically implemented if they have value to the setting/campaign or re-visioned or rejected of they are perhaps accidental mechanical happenstance (of questionable value?).

As you say, though, perhaps what I was REALLY after were vanilla characters--hermetics or standard builds of adepts that don't require specialist rules or exceptions. Thank you for pointing that out. K.I.S.S. to start with, add variations after. (And remembering a part of this is to force me to make decisions out of the options that I've identified and write them down on (digital) paper.)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 2 2023, 09:44 PM) *
More generally, Shadowrun is a very distinctive system with mechanics that drive flavor, and Characters made by experienced players will reflect those distinctive elements. Youíre unlikely to get Trolls who have no use for Strength or Body, and youíre unlikely to get mages whose mechanical advantages and disadvantages are irrelevant to their concept.

While true, I wouldn't want the existence of a mechanical widget in SR to necessitate its existence somewhere else when it is more an emergent property of the mechanics themselves rather than the setting driving it. For example, your Troll example is setting driven: Trolls are big and strong, so they are going to have an obvious physical advantage in the mechanics. Similarly, the choices that mages make will have advantages and disadvantages, but those are not inherently going to exist because they exist as a product of the SR mechanics. Thus, the importance of a Totem to a Shaman (such as it might be) doesn't require that it translate to mechanical buffs in certain spell types familiar to SR.

I seem to be doing a terrible job of explaining things. I agree with what your saying, but can merely point out that I'm not engaging in a mechanical conversion. Rather, it is a setting-based interpretation that draws from the mechanics but is not prescribed by them?

I guess it comes down to it that for some SR is a fantastic setting that they wish were abstracted with a different set of rules. That's what I'm doing while simultaneously using it as a way of integrating the other settings. For example, how does an Adept from ED compare to one in SR etc.

Such projects always run into the problem of knowledge and skills sets--those that love the setting and can converse in the original mechanics, and those that are conversant with the other mechanics and are willing to work with the setting over their own ingrained system-based responses.

Perhaps this is just the wrong place for it.
Ka_ge2020
Let's just at least temporarily CLOSE the thread unless a GURPS'er wants to join in the fun and help out on thread?
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