Hey everyone,

In a few days I am going to reenter my shadowrun group and I am juggling ideas on who to play. From constellation of our group we need someone who can fight, hack, rig and has a certain degree of professionalism to help the group grow into the dark sides of running the shadows. Our GM reads into all rules necessary and allows me full freedom on what to play and which rules to apply. We are playing beginning of 2070 in Rhein Ruhr Mega Sprawl.
I want to play someone who is good at what he does, but kinda flawed in a lot of senses. My idea is an ex-military man, having been part of the early Cyborg experiments by MCT. Do you have any good idea on how that could have happened? The character will be friends with a MET2000 arms dealer and has ties to the Humanis. It would fit the character having an addiction, question is the substance. From service time Jazz would fit, but that might be far away and other substances fit the Cyborg story better? Jazz would be an interesting way to design a combat monster, who is flawed by drug abuse.
In my imagination this man has 4 cyberlimbs holding all the other gear: nanite bruter (don't know the English term), commlink, and so on. Also the limbs have better stats than our man himself. Can I install a rigging module into an arm?
Regarding hacking I think about him being a formidable aggressor, but someone who is not used to long term probing. Also he lacks skills in programming and data search, thereby not taking that area from our detective type character. The character could fear using VR as it brings up bad memories about his Cyborg time, using AR only and having enough reflexboosters to make up for it. I think about him sitting in the van, backing up the team and when shit hits the fan taking a dose of jazz inhalation and running rampage, rescuing his friends asses but never getting clean... further he has a lot of toys, but making him use them requires a lot of arguing.
Does this makes sense to you guys? I have a lot of stuff in my head but bringing it to virtual paper feels difficult. Any questions I am more than glad to answer and looking forward to your ideas.

I'm no Shadowrun expert, so please take everything with a pinch of salt.


That seems like a lot of territory to cover with a single character. Would you not be creating one weak rigger/decker/fighter rather than a strong character?

Why not make a good character in their niche and then just hire someone to do the other stuff?


My understanding of "cyborgs" in the Shadowrun sense is that they're going to require some substantial resources to make it happen. Unless, of course, you're talking "cyborg" in meaning anyone that has cybernetics in them to the degree their Essence would otherwise allow?

If someone was going to go full 'borg in one of my games, I would want the hooks in real deep. Patrons, required favours, etc. This is not a character that is free, but one that is entirely indebted to a corp, government, or NGO agenda.


Addiction seems to imply some form of need. Do Shadowrun 'borgs have "needs"?


Personally I would say "no" to the Rigger module in an arm because it doesn't seem thematically appropriate. That and it's in the section, at least in SR4, of "headware".

If you want your stats to go higher than average, then you're going to require a cybertorso (per SR4).

As to what goes in the cyberlimbs, that would seem to be "enhancements" as listed in the book itself.


Then don't make him a decker/hacker.

If I were hiring someone for a 'Run, the least skill they should have would be to do the Shadowrun equivalent of a Google search. (Amusingly, something that probably invalidates the premise of decking in SR, but whatever. )


For my table, this sounds like you're trying to create a "Frankenstein"--someone that can do everything and be awesome at everything.

If your GM is cool with it...? *shrugs*

Again, though, I would focus on one thing first and then, and only then, sidetrack into other concepts.

That's just me, though. YMMV.

As far as I have read it I entirely possible if not recommended to have a secondary purpose in SR4, especially the street sam. Since no character is particularly optimized in their field so far, me mildly optimizing for 2.5 areas might work well.
Hiring someone eliminates that area of the play. Me being a weak hacker actually allows us to just skip the annoying hacker-only campaigns during legwork.
I just found out, that rigging is always an option although the rigger module gives +2 on all wired dice rolls. So just having a datajack and enough skill (or talent wires) might do the job as well.


I am talking Cyborg in the sense of Augmentation sourcebook. My plan, though, is to not play a cyborg, but merely someone having been in the pre-stages of cyborgization. I think about using dossier as a NQ to make up for all the data the corp has about him. Question is, will a mega corp allow someone out of a top secret f&e project to leave? After all it is there land and liquidation might be the safer way than expelling our guy. Then again, what if he doesn't even know he was part of a testing program and being told there is no other solution than putting his brain in a jar was just to much?


Yes, although they might not know. Keeping the brain alive and happy in its jar probably needs insane amount of substances that we do not even know. Further, stimulating certain areas of the brain might increase the productivity of the Cyborg or guarantee obedience.
However, since we are not talking about a full Cyborg, he might have an addiction from the testing phase, from hospital or carryover from service time.


So the rigger module not having a capacity rating means no build in. Seems fair to me as well, it must be wired with the brain/spine somehow.

I now have read for a few times that multiple cyberlimbs require a cybertorso but can not find any passage about that. Regarding the stats my corebook says that a cybertorso is necessary to enhance a limb with an attribute enhancement above 3. Using a personalised limb it should therefore be possible to increase to attribute 9 for a human without a torso. Base 3+personal enhancement to natural limit 3+boost 3.

There was a question popping up in my mind about limbs and MBW. Fluff says that MBW keeps the body in constant cramps. If there are no muscles to cramp, how does it work then?


The hacking abilities of our guy are quite brute. He knows how to crack a firewall or fight a persona trying to hack his own PAN. Of course basic knowledge about coding and searching are there, but by no means he should take that from our research specialist. Having no skill doesn't mean incompetence, he just doesn't like it. You don't hire him because he is good at googling. You hire him, because someone has to enter the premise crack some data container and in case things go down shoot the guards to escape with the goodies.


No, not good at talking, not good at stalking. Mental issues filling time in between runs.

Edit for killing unnecessary quotes

Then fair enough.

I guess my takeaway from this is that some of the "occupational" themes in SR are not as strong as others. If you've tried converting, or rather interpreting, this in another system then this is probably not a surprise. (This is more relevant for my SR-Earthdawn project at the moment, though.)

Getting back to SR, though, I would take such roles as Fixer and Rigger as weak enough not to be considered entire "roles". Both involve using one or more accessory skills at best unless you really dive down into the specialty, which is not something that is required for many of the other roles/builds.


Are they truly significant, though? That's another angle to consider.

Don't get me wrong, they can be if you specialise enough with them. But if you're trying to generalise with them...?

Again, worth the thought.


How so?

On the face of it, doesn't it just make you a weak hacker that won't be able to really deliver on the goods of solid legwork?

Clearly you're not talking about a "hacker-only campaign", so I'm a little bit confused.


I just read that again and it didn't clear up the situation re: cybermancy. That probably just means that I need to continue to read more on the subject.


A "brain in a jar" seems to be pretty much way out there in terms of relative degrees of "cyborg".

What you seem to be describing is someone that is maxed out in terms of cyberware. This is not necessarily the same as a cyberzombie.


It sounds like you need to define more at your table what "cyborg" means. I'm seeing some conflict with the source materials, which is one of the reasons that I raised the terminology.


You have found the same information, though I totally disagree with your assessment that a cyberlimb can be boosted to 9 without a cybertorso. (If that is actually what you meant.)


No idea, but mostly because I'm not familiar with your abbreviations.

Move-By-Wire. Riggers also were more strongly-defined in SR3 and earlier where both costs and rewards of a VCR were higher—this is an SR4 topic, but I can’t let that statement pass with an unqualified “SR” attached to it.

~J

Is that cheaper than just skillwires and wired reflexes? It helps dodging, but it seems like an NPC thing.

Although cyberlimbs and extra IPs are both so expensive (nuyen and essence) that you really can't do both.

If you mean the VCR, Skillwires and Wired Reflexes are definitely not in competition with a VCR in SR1-3—in SR3 Wired Reflexes themselves are dramatically more expensive than a VCR (15k for VCR-1, 55k¥ for WR-1, 60k for VCR-2) before you even get to Skillwires. In SR4+ I don’t know, my objection was to the unqualified “in SR”.

If you mean MBW, SR1-3 made it a pretty bad deal for PCs (and also described the persistent state as not constant cramps, but constant controlled seizure) outside of a one-shot campaign or some kind of special-dispensation character with Borrowed Time or whatnot. I wouldn’t be shocked if SR4 toned down the penalties like they did with combat drugs, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if the end result still wasn’t really worth taking.

~J

I leave the specific, detailed mechanical points to others. I talk in generalities and hope for backfilling.

I don't think a brain in a jar is created by gradually cutting away the body until left with just the brain, they'd directly take out the brain and put it into the CCU. So there would be no early stages of "cyborgization".

But of course you could always say that he was a subject of some R&D program related to cyborgs. Maybe he got his limbs blown off in the line of duty, then some enterprising scientists decided to use his body as a testbed for some stuff.



It puts the body in a state of seizure, which in German sounds similar to muscle cramps but is something totally different.

Also note that the description in the book makes no sense, even the analogy to aircraft is based on confusing relaxed stability with fly-by-wire. So don't think too hard about it




Cyborg, not cyberzombie

A cyborg in SR4 is a disembodied brain put into a jar (more formally, a cranial containment unit, or CCU), which then gets plugged into a drone body. It does no longer require cybermancy with all the side effects, but you still get all the pychological side effects and dependence on drug cocktails. And because adult brains are too inflexible to adapt, many cyborgs are just high-powered child soldiers.

Hey guys,

thanks for the input. Below is my GM approved character sheet. Still 24h to optimize, any ideas?

Attributes
Body 3
Agility 3 (5)
Reaction 5 (6)
Strength 3
Charisma 3
Intuition 5
Logic 3
Willpower 3
Edge 2
Essence 0,46
Initiative 10 (11)
Passes 1(2)
[I did not want to dump a stat]

Skills
Athletics Group 1
Electronics Group 1
Ground Vehicles 1
Automatics (Submachine Guns) 4 (6)
Exotic Melee Monofilamentwhip 4
Blades (Knives) 2 (4)
Perception 2
Infiltration (Urban) 1 (3)
Etiquette (MET2000) 1 (3)
Hacking 6
Electronic Warfare 3
Cybercombat 3
Weaponsmith 2
[AGI 9 in the arms as well as +3 to logic connected skills should provide good boost to skills in general]

Qualities
Biocompatibility
Blackmarket Channel (Weapons)
Restricted Gear
Addiction (light/Jazz)
Dossier (MCT)
In Debt (20k)
[He should receive Prejudice (open/metas) as well, as he cooperates with the Humanis. However he is more of a follower and privately gets along well with anyone. Also, I skipped the SIN, because I have the Dossier (35NQ were full already)]

Contacts
Armsdealer Frank (L3/C4) [Plot element, substitutes for the fixer]
Cyberdoc Mime (3/3)
StufferShack cashier Laura (L5/C1) [on/off girlfriend]

Implants

• Obvious Arm left (Custom AGI 6, AGI +3, Shotgun) [this arm was taken off another Razorgirl, it is pink and looks a little off; further character is right handed, but gun is left for more fluff fun]
• Obvious Arm right (Custom AGI 6, AGI +3, armor 2, Finger-tip compartment [Mono-whip], datajack, commlink, hot-sim module)
• Obvious leg left (Armor 2, datajack, foot anchor, nanite brute 1)
• Obvious leg right (Armor 2, foot anchor, air tank, injectionsystem [reusable], smuggling compartment]
• Reflexbooster 1
• Reflexrecorder (Automatics)
• neo-cortical nanites [technically no implant, but belongs here]

Gear
Commlink [optimized by other forum posts]
Public Commlink
Car
Guns
Other stuff

Turbo has served in the MET2000. A grenade cost him three limbs, which were cybered up instead. Finding out about his exceptional compatibility to the implants he was handed over into a con-program for R&D of Cyborgs (CCU types as specified in this thread). He dropped out of the program due to instability and substance abuse (consequence of service). Since his arm was taken off and not "refunded" in the program he turned to a ripper providing a good arm in no time, but now asking for interest every second day.
Laura is an everyday bubble gum cashier girl, who wanted to become a model or something, but is just a tad to ugly/poor. The day Turbo went into the Shack she fell in love: him being the best version of himself, having that confidence. Even after a year now he didnt tell her about his job and somehow it annoys the hell out of her, but it gives him that hot mystery aura...
Turbo lives in a small flat in the Rhine Ruhr Megasprawl (location TBD) and supports Frank and the Humanis [first karma might be a group connection] for a living. He will enter the story upon stumbling into the group (at least one of them) in a warehouse and sharing a mutual interest to leave the premise without noise and giving each other a lift.


From my experiences hacking in SR4 (even more so SR3) forces hackers into a situation, where their brains work so quickly it almost makes hacking a run-inside-the-run. Be it legwork and the hacker rolling 15x times for probing something and then rolling another 15x times for data search, then meeting a contact in a matrix bar OR be it in the run when the hacker plugs into any device and starts his thing acting up to 5x times while other characters have 1 turn. All of this is compensated by handing the research area to the detective, cutting short on probing anything and only AR hack in run. This way hacking is part of the job, but the character is less off the rest of the group.

..only 2 initiative passess.., Ask Gm for allow Arms and Legs as Cybersuite)9 if possible add 1 more initiati pass..

Fair enough.

You're actually raising a lot of interesting points for my own use, too. On the face of it, in my terms what you're talking about "Altered Time Rate" while in the Matrix, but ultimately what it would come down is being able to do multiple tasks so it would just end up being a modifier. After all, in the end it might be cool to be doing 15 actions for a meat sack's one move, but 1) it's boring for other people (as you note); and 2) ultimately evens out when you bring in other factors like people with faster machines, non-sentient AIs, AIs, sprites etc.

Still, it's kind of cool to think about. Thanks for the ideas!

In SR3 the rules were adamant: matrix actions follow the same Initiative rules as the rest of the game. The closest to “altered time rate” was the ability to stack Pure DNI, Reality Filters, and Response Increase 3 for a total of +10 Reaction/+5d6 Initiative compared to a typical upper limit of +6 Reaction/+3d6 Initiative for WR-3/VCR-3. This translates to roughly 1-2 more passes per round than the Rigger, and maybe 2-3 more than the Sam who is more likely to stop at WR-2. On the other hand, the system strongly discouraged cybercombat which meant that more actions per round were likely to be wasted—if you can use all your non-DF-allocated pool on one action (which is generally the case), you’re usually better off waiting for it to refresh for your next action, so even though there are times it can be desirable the decker usually wasn’t running it that way.

I feel like there must be extreme altered time rate rules in some edition, because people keep referring to them, but they weren’t in SR3 and I don’t think they got resurrected in SR4.

~J

3 IP because he is addicted to Jazz
What is Cybersuite?
No need to ask my GM as he is in favor of optimizing the heck out of my character. There will be weaknesses and I will bring them up to play with them, enjoying my character to suffer, as much as GM will give opportunities for the character to shine and keep the illusion of heroism in the grim future.



Nothing to thank for. I'm glad this leads to more than me deciding on a few numbers

SR4 is much less that way than previous editions.

For one thing often hacking is actually spoofing, which threads in with everything else relatively seamlessly.

For hacking on the fly generally either it's fast or they screwed it up and might as well stop.

The take away from probing is that for most systems you'll be able to relatively quickly do whatever you want. So the legwork part tends to be very focused yet limited in purpose.

Occasionally you'll have a situation where the hacker needs to do the whole fighting with IC to complete the mission thing. But still faster than previous editions.

If your issue is the hacker can get multiple IPs on the cheap and everyone else on the team has 1 IP, you'd have the same problem with a speedy Sammy or whatever on a 1 ip team.

..Cybersuite is basically cramming Cyber one single package, reducing cost and essennce lost 10 %. Augmentation pg. 48-49

@all: thank you guys for all the input and idea juggling
@mods: topic can be closed

That isn’t really the custom around these parts—mods will occasionally lock threads that have run their course, but in my experience that mostly happens if they were considering locking the thread for other reasons before it died out. Note that there are less than 300 locked threads in Discussion > Shadowrun out of more than 30,000. (And looking at it the last time a thread was locked was in 2016.)

But I’m glad we could help

~J