Given:
In SR3 we know that the type of some spells is Mana and for others is Physical. Physical spells can only be cast on the physical plane while Mana spells can be cast on either physical or astral plane. Mana spells only affect living things (or astral barriers... and who knows if spirits "live"?) while Physical spells can affect living things or mundane objects. A caster needs a magical link to the subject/target as provided by Line of Sight such that a dual-natured astrally-perceiving magician could astrally see a subject/target they visually cannot (eg Ruthenium) and then they can physically spellcast against them. The caster and the subject/target must share a plane in common so the caster cannot astrally cast against a Ruthenium subject/target unless that subject/target is also astrally present / dual natured.
A caster can move the area-of-effect of a spell (eg Detection or Illusion) an infinite distance with a Complex Action so a caster can practise TriD Phantasm until they get exactly the effect they want then peer through their telescope, spend a Complex Action, and bam: it's inside someone's bedroom on the other side of the city, or on the moon, or whatever.
Consider:
A spirit is always astrally present but only physically present part-time.
Illusions are only effective on the physical plane, not the astral.
Scenario:
Shaman summons a spirit. Shaman wants the spirit to do something far away beyond LoS and to be Invisible while it does it. Shaman spends a Service to get the spirit to Materialise. Shaman casts Improved Invisibility and tells the spirit to go to the remote location for its next task.
Questions:
If the spirit deMaterialises in order to Fast Astral Movement to its next job and then reMaterialises there, is it still Invisible? (Ie does deMaterialising leave the spell behind or does the Physical spell stick to the Astral form of the spirit and remain in effect for the spirit to "step into" when it resumes being a Physical subject/target of the spell, provided that the shaman continues to Sustain?)
If the spell does not stick to the spirit, does it get forcibly terminated when no such Physical presence exists upon which it had been cast?
If it does stick around in limbo while its subject/target has no Physical form, and if the spirit in question is an Ally with the Sense Link power, can the shaman observe through the Ally's borrowed senses and spend a Complex Action to relocate a spell's area of effect to the Ally's location (not to suggest that Improved Invisibility has an area-of-effect (even though Indirect Illusions are explicitly "cast around" a focal point as if they were AoE spells) but TriD Phantasm or Darkness or something like that could be a viable way of making the spirit difficult to spot in the new, remote area)? I realise that the shaman cannot cast fresh spells through the Ally's Sense Link but I am wondering about simply relocating an existing spell.
When a spell is cast on the Astral plane, is it a dual-natured construct? When a spell is cast on the Physical plane, is it a dual-natured construct? Or do spells only ever exist on one plane, chosen at the moment of casting? So that, for example, if a mage cast Increase Willpower on our shaman (a Mana spell cast on the Physical plane) and then the shaman Astrally Projected, does the spell get "left behind"? Would that mean that their Astral Body is increased while their Astral Willpower is not, or what? Or does the Mana spell cast on the Physical plane get dragged up into the Astral plane when the shaman Projects and continue to affect them as if they'd cast it there? Can a purely astral adversary who encounters their astral form dispell the spell buffing their astral attributes even though it had been initially cast on the physical plane?
If a sustained spell is a dual-natured construct, can it be engaged in Astral Combat? I am aware that an active Sustaining Focus is dual-natured and can be defeated in Astral Combat, but what about a free-standing spell being sustained through brain power?
Context:
Some of these possibilities arose during the remote Invisible spirit scenario in our recent game and while we played ahead with a contingency strategy, some of us would like consensus on what the real authoritative answer is for SR3, understanding that the answers under SR2 are quite likely quite different.
Full Version: Planar spells
QUOTE
Questions:
If the spirit deMaterialises in order to Fast Astral Movement to its next job and then reMaterialises there, is it still Invisible? (Ie does deMaterialising leave the spell behind or does the Physical spell stick to the Astral form of the spirit and remain in effect for the spirit to "step into" when it resumes being a Physical subject/target of the spell, provided that the shaman continues to Sustain?)
If the spell does not stick to the spirit, does it get forcibly terminated when no such Physical presence exists upon which it had been cast?
If it does stick around in limbo while its subject/target has no Physical form, and if the spirit in question is an Ally with the Sense Link power, can the shaman observe through the Ally's borrowed senses and spend a Complex Action to relocate a spell's area of effect to the Ally's location (not to suggest that Improved Invisibility has an area-of-effect (even though Indirect Illusions are explicitly "cast around" a focal point as if they were AoE spells) but TriD Phantasm or Darkness or something like that could be a viable way of making the spirit difficult to spot in the new, remote area)? I realise that the shaman cannot cast fresh spells through the Ally's Sense Link but I am wondering about simply relocating an existing spell.
When a spell is cast on the Astral plane, is it a dual-natured construct? When a spell is cast on the Physical plane, is it a dual-natured construct? Or do spells only ever exist on one plane, chosen at the moment of casting? So that, for example, if a mage cast Increase Willpower on our shaman (a Mana spell cast on the Physical plane) and then the shaman Astrally Projected, does the spell get "left behind"? Would that mean that their Astral Body is increased while their Astral Willpower is not, or what? Or does the Mana spell cast on the Physical plane get dragged up into the Astral plane when the shaman Projects and continue to affect them as if they'd cast it there? Can a purely astral adversary who encounters their astral form dispell the spell buffing their astral attributes even though it had been initially cast on the physical plane?
If a sustained spell is a dual-natured construct, can it be engaged in Astral Combat? I am aware that an active Sustaining Focus is dual-natured and can be defeated in Astral Combat, but what about a free-standing spell being sustained through brain power?
If the spirit deMaterialises in order to Fast Astral Movement to its next job and then reMaterialises there, is it still Invisible? (Ie does deMaterialising leave the spell behind or does the Physical spell stick to the Astral form of the spirit and remain in effect for the spirit to "step into" when it resumes being a Physical subject/target of the spell, provided that the shaman continues to Sustain?)
If the spell does not stick to the spirit, does it get forcibly terminated when no such Physical presence exists upon which it had been cast?
If it does stick around in limbo while its subject/target has no Physical form, and if the spirit in question is an Ally with the Sense Link power, can the shaman observe through the Ally's borrowed senses and spend a Complex Action to relocate a spell's area of effect to the Ally's location (not to suggest that Improved Invisibility has an area-of-effect (even though Indirect Illusions are explicitly "cast around" a focal point as if they were AoE spells) but TriD Phantasm or Darkness or something like that could be a viable way of making the spirit difficult to spot in the new, remote area)? I realise that the shaman cannot cast fresh spells through the Ally's Sense Link but I am wondering about simply relocating an existing spell.
When a spell is cast on the Astral plane, is it a dual-natured construct? When a spell is cast on the Physical plane, is it a dual-natured construct? Or do spells only ever exist on one plane, chosen at the moment of casting? So that, for example, if a mage cast Increase Willpower on our shaman (a Mana spell cast on the Physical plane) and then the shaman Astrally Projected, does the spell get "left behind"? Would that mean that their Astral Body is increased while their Astral Willpower is not, or what? Or does the Mana spell cast on the Physical plane get dragged up into the Astral plane when the shaman Projects and continue to affect them as if they'd cast it there? Can a purely astral adversary who encounters their astral form dispell the spell buffing their astral attributes even though it had been initially cast on the physical plane?
If a sustained spell is a dual-natured construct, can it be engaged in Astral Combat? I am aware that an active Sustaining Focus is dual-natured and can be defeated in Astral Combat, but what about a free-standing spell being sustained through brain power?
A)
A key issue here is the relationship between caster and target. You specifically mention Improved Invisibility, which is a Physical spell and has as a target a physical form. If the spirit dematerializes, there is no physical form for the spell to target. If the spell were one of those allowed to switch targets or move around, then the caster could switch from the spirit to something/someone else, then have the spirit dematerialize, and wait for it to rematerialize. Without that ability, a spell without a target, the connection to which is made by LoS, cannot be maintained. I cannot find an exact statement of this point, so I have to extrapolate from 1) LoS is necessary to target a spell and 2) Physical spells can only target physical forms.
Now, a mana spell like Invisibility should be able to travel with the spirit.
B)
Targeting a spell through a spotter is allowed in Ritual Spellcasting, but not in Spellcasting. So if the magician were to use a Ritual (which can be done even by an individual who has that Skill) then they would be able to target a (new) spell on the spirit even if it is out of LoS. It could, after all, spot itself.
C)
Astral Combat requires an astral form as a target. Spells exist on the astral plane, but are not described as being an astral form. Dispelling performed by another astral form (eg. magician) would be able to target it, though.
My opinion:
Illusion spells are not effective on the Astral Plane because it is obvious it is a spell - not because the illusion does not appear.
LOS only needs to exist to cast the spell - not to sustain it. (Otherwise, when the target of an Invisibility spell becomes invisible, there is a chance the caster no longer sees the target.
I think you are hung up on Physical spells affecting the physical plane, and only Mana spells can affect the astral plane. (You should change casting "on" a particular plane to casting "from" a particular plane. It may increase understanding.) I will agree as far as that goes ...
But, ALL spells are present in the astral, just as all spirits are present in the astral (and dragons, if it matters.) The distinction on the physical plane is if it affects living beings or technological devices. Physical spells may affect both, while mana spells only affect living things.
The example of an Increase Willpower spell being sustained and then the target astrally projecting would work, and when they return to their body, it keeps working. (However, the spell would need to be sustained by another or a focus because projecting is exclusive.) The buff spell would not matter if it was Physical or mana.
Illusion spells are not effective on the Astral Plane because it is obvious it is a spell - not because the illusion does not appear.
LOS only needs to exist to cast the spell - not to sustain it. (Otherwise, when the target of an Invisibility spell becomes invisible, there is a chance the caster no longer sees the target.
I think you are hung up on Physical spells affecting the physical plane, and only Mana spells can affect the astral plane. (You should change casting "on" a particular plane to casting "from" a particular plane. It may increase understanding.) I will agree as far as that goes ...
But, ALL spells are present in the astral, just as all spirits are present in the astral (and dragons, if it matters.) The distinction on the physical plane is if it affects living beings or technological devices. Physical spells may affect both, while mana spells only affect living things.
The example of an Increase Willpower spell being sustained and then the target astrally projecting would work, and when they return to their body, it keeps working. (However, the spell would need to be sustained by another or a focus because projecting is exclusive.) The buff spell would not matter if it was Physical or mana.
Another response, this one via Discord, was:
QUOTE
Spells are never dual-natured, because they are created through mana, and mana permeates both planes.
Spells do not have an astral presence. In astral plane, a caster aura shimmers with the energies of the spell as it is cast. SR3 pg 181 "Spell targetting"
Spells can by physical or mana. They do not come from the astral. They come from the Manasphere which is generated by living things in the physical world.
Spells do not have an astral presence. In astral plane, a caster aura shimmers with the energies of the spell as it is cast. SR3 pg 181 "Spell targetting"
Spells can by physical or mana. They do not come from the astral. They come from the Manasphere which is generated by living things in the physical world.
QUOTE (Bodak @ Oct 15 2023, 02:56 PM) 
Another response, this one via Discord, was:
Spells are never dual-natured, because they are created through mana, and mana permeates both planes.
Spells do not have an astral presence. In astral plane, a caster aura shimmers with the energies of the spell as it is cast. SR3 pg 181 "Spell targetting"
Spells can by physical or mana. They do not come from the astral. They come from the Manasphere which is generated by living things in the physical world.
QUOTE
Spells are never dual-natured, because they are created through mana, and mana permeates both planes.
Spells do not have an astral presence. In astral plane, a caster aura shimmers with the energies of the spell as it is cast. SR3 pg 181 "Spell targetting"
Spells can by physical or mana. They do not come from the astral. They come from the Manasphere which is generated by living things in the physical world.
And I'd respond with:
The first sentence is partially correct and is a verbatim quote from page 161 SR3 but according to the same source material mana actually travels / permeates through three planes of existance in this order: meta planes -> physical world -> astral space. Spells do exist on the plane that they are cast on and use the mana from within said plane as fuel. The reason why you can see a spell (that is sustained on the physical plane) on the astral as an aura is because it "casts" its aura onto the astral plane in the same manner that other living and / or magical entities do (also p. 161 SR3). Instant spells or ones that have already become permanent that originate from the physical plane - while certainly creating aura for some period of time - have that aura either for a too short a period of time to make them "readable" (instant spell) or already transitioned into the "only a signature left" (permanent) by the time anyone could reasonably try to assense their respective auras.
The second single line paragraph has two sentences where the second sentence is close to a verbatim quote from p. 181 but I'd object to the conclusion in the first sentence because it doesn't logically follow from the fact that you can see the energies building up in an astrally casting entity that the spells - when being cast and particularly when sustained - do not have some form of astral presence (even if it only another type of "aura" that's being reflected back onto the Astral Plane itself) by themselves. If they hadn't you'd be hard pressed to try any form of dispelling a sustained spell on the astral - which by RAW is possible. Additionally that sentence on p. 181 also somewhat contradicts the idea that is presented on p 161 that suggests that a spellcaster is actually manipulating the mana at / within the spells intended target, but I guess you could consider the caster aura shimmering as a representation of them sending out their "radio signals" within the analogy given on page 161 ... which in turn would mean that you should be able to see the same kind of "power fluctuation" in the aura of a only physically present mage casting a spell on the phyiscal plane while observing them from the Astral.
The sentences in the third single line paragraph are correct for the first and sentence (when ignoring the typo "by" instead of "be") but the third is incorrect again, because the Manasphere is not actually created by the living things in the phyiscal world within SR3 magic theory: p. 161 literally says that Mana flows from the metaplanes through the physical world to the Astral Plane. The typical (but somewhat unrelated) objection then typically is that there is supposedly no Manasphere in space but that particular aspect - at least for SR3 - is resolved with how "Mana voids" despite the name aren't actually voids but rather heavily disrupted types of manaspheres with background count levels above 6 according to MitS.
Maybe not all directly related, but certainly the questions that came to mind when I read your post.
If it's a nature spirit, and you're sending it out of LOS, it's probably going to have to cross into a new domain - which is a problem! Unless your shaman has invoking and has made it a great form.
A spirit can use a metaplane hop for a service, but has to come back near the summoner - it can't metaplane hop and appear at a remote location.
So, unless you're at one edge of a forest and the remote location is the other end and it IS all one big domain, or you're just using a sky spirit and staying in that domain - or you're using great forms, then you're potentially looking at problems to get the spirit there.
If you're casting invisibility, that's a mana spell - so I'd say you could cast it on the astral form and it would go.
If you're casting improved invisibility, that's a physical spell, so I think I'd go with the spell failing / dropping off when there isn't a physical form to tie the spell to.
Assuming you can get the spirit there, and you have the sense link, could you make a test and modify your spell? If it's a mana spell, then sure. If it was a physical spell (like trid-phantasm) then I'd say no - but that's because of the spell failing where there was no physical being to hold the effect, rather than the rules on reshaping the spell.
Is the spell a dual natured construct? I'd go with no, it's only relevant on the plane it was cast upon.
However, cast your improved WP spell on a mage, on their physical form, and their WP goes up. They astrally project - the WP stays up, as long as the spell is sustained on their meat body, IMO. The two are linked. If the body dies, the soul has Essence hours to haunt the person who did it. Damage to the astral form on metaplane quests can quite happily manifest on the meat sack back in the real world. A pinch to the soft fleshy inner thigh can alert a mage to stuff going on with their body... so I'd be quite happy for the WP effect to go with them. But because there is an active spell on their body and by extension their aura, they glow on the astral plane and people can tell they have a spell up upon them - so it's potentially a 2 edged sword.
If it's a nature spirit, and you're sending it out of LOS, it's probably going to have to cross into a new domain - which is a problem! Unless your shaman has invoking and has made it a great form.
A spirit can use a metaplane hop for a service, but has to come back near the summoner - it can't metaplane hop and appear at a remote location.
So, unless you're at one edge of a forest and the remote location is the other end and it IS all one big domain, or you're just using a sky spirit and staying in that domain - or you're using great forms, then you're potentially looking at problems to get the spirit there.
If you're casting invisibility, that's a mana spell - so I'd say you could cast it on the astral form and it would go.
If you're casting improved invisibility, that's a physical spell, so I think I'd go with the spell failing / dropping off when there isn't a physical form to tie the spell to.
Assuming you can get the spirit there, and you have the sense link, could you make a test and modify your spell? If it's a mana spell, then sure. If it was a physical spell (like trid-phantasm) then I'd say no - but that's because of the spell failing where there was no physical being to hold the effect, rather than the rules on reshaping the spell.
Is the spell a dual natured construct? I'd go with no, it's only relevant on the plane it was cast upon.
However, cast your improved WP spell on a mage, on their physical form, and their WP goes up. They astrally project - the WP stays up, as long as the spell is sustained on their meat body, IMO. The two are linked. If the body dies, the soul has Essence hours to haunt the person who did it. Damage to the astral form on metaplane quests can quite happily manifest on the meat sack back in the real world. A pinch to the soft fleshy inner thigh can alert a mage to stuff going on with their body... so I'd be quite happy for the WP effect to go with them. But because there is an active spell on their body and by extension their aura, they glow on the astral plane and people can tell they have a spell up upon them - so it's potentially a 2 edged sword.
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