Intimidation isn't just about getting a guy to talk, it's about getting real, useful information out of him. The Charisma part of that comes in the form of truth through betrayal. By making someone give up information in this way, you are convincing them that it is better to be on your side. Just being tough isn't enough.

Indeed. It's the difference between turning someone into a quivering wreck that'll say anything to keep you from hurting it, or pressuring someone to spill the truth by effectively pushing his buttons.

Of course, when it comes to scaring people off by brute strength, the GM could offer you to substitute another attribute, like Strength or Body, for Charisma. But when it comes to finer applications, where precision results are wanted, Charisma is definitely the right attribute. (Big muscles might still provide the +2 bonus for a show of weaponry.)

Actually, if I had to pick a single piece of art in the SR4A book to be my "favorite" it would be the human cop interrogating the troll, which by no coincidence is on the same page as the rules for Intimidation.

Anyway, the key, as Saint Sithney pointed out, is that there are different kinds of intimidation. I would argue that if you had two characters interrogating a subject by playing "Good Cop/Bad Cop" the bad cop would use Body or Strength (and get the bonus for obvious weapons) and the good cop would use Charisma.

Also, if you're talking about the 4e barbarians, they're not just adrenaline-pumped warriors anymore. They're totemic warriors channeling spirits. They actually have a *niche* now instead of just being ignorant bumpkins who break things. The strength+constitution barbarians (rageblood) are the champions of the wild, dishing out *serious* hurt under the guidance of the Spirits. The Strength+Charisma barbarians (thaneborn) are the inspiring leaders of the tribe, heroes who conjure fear in the hearts of their enemies, and courage in their allies. Summarized in three words: "I! AM! BEOWULF!"

I'm sorry. I stopped listening about here.

Barbarians gained shamanic totem spirits and became a real class while Druids lost that very same thing and ceased being one. Oh, and the barb is a better fighter. And a better rogue (if you lack a rogue, send in the barbarian. If you lack a barbarian, send in the timber rogue (aka a log)).

4e is dead to me once I realized that it didn't matter what class, race, skills, feats, class features, stats, or class path I picked I was still, essentially, the same character: a 2 dimensional gingerbread man who had delusions of uniqueness

You have to actually break the system to end up with something no one thought of before.*

*Sorry, the centaur paladin who out damages the fighter has already been done.

Well, the Good Cop uses a combination of Con and Negotiate. He tries to make a deal with the guy, a deal which is often enough a lie (a cop can tell you anything he wants to get a confession.) He'll try and sell you an easy ride in return for compliance.
The Bad Cop is straight up Intimidating the mark. He stares the guy straight on and takes a dominate position over him. It operates on a sort of animal-instinctual level to break a guy down. The Bad Cop is the angry, glaring embodiment of the trouble you've brought down on yourself. He plays on guilt and fear to get the mark to capitulate. Of course, the application of knives to genitals is an effective means to instilling fear, but it's really not that special, being in the position to kill a man. Most everyone in SR is in a position to get killed buy any number of people at all times of the day.

The difference between a Barbarian with Cha 1/Str 6 and a Barbarian with Cha 6/Str 1 is that the former is a big dumb ox that everyone orders around and the latter is the one everyone listens to.

Strange. My group found that roleplaying was enough to put "uniqueness" into a character. Then again, we recognize that there's nothing new under the sun, so we're not particularly horrified by the fact that I'm playing (GASP!) a neutral good cleric of Pelor. YMMV, but if we were after "uniqueness" (instead of, say, creativity, which *is* different), well, we'd just give up on RPG's altogether. 3.5 was a ridiculous system, one I memorized the core rules for, glanced at 4e, and decided that the latter was more accessible to my friends, and lo and behold, we're having fun with it. Sure, druids lost a bit. But my friends still enjoy playing them (and we all like the fact that CoDzilla no longer exists).

The problem that I have with 4e is that every single character is a cookie cutter copy of every other character, mechanically. I made two very different characters--as far as the class, race, and stat allocation (which by the way, railroads your class feature choices) and in the end I looked at the two characters--each had seen some combat play in two different games--and found that both did the same thing on the battle field to the same net effect at the same efficiency. They were identical in all aspects except name.

I have no problem with people making characters that are "human wizard" and whatnot, but never uses "fire" spells because his home was burned down when he was a child, that is flavor that can be seen in the mechanics. That is what I find interesting and unique. That is what I find fun about characters I build: finding a theme and building it with the rules: personality effects choices. When the mechanics don't support meaningful choice then it is identical to no choice at all in everything but name.*

*There are two doors before you, which do you open? One has treasure, the other has a monster.
What you don't know is that the "game" will decide what's behind which door when you open the first door: you will always be presented with the monster first, effectively nullifying your choice.

Eh, some classes are more different than others. Was my Infernal Half-Elf Warlock all that different from the Christian Dwarf Cleric? Not really. I spent all my healing on myself, she spent all her healing on everyone else. Was the Wizard different? Hell yes. Was the Warlord different? Hell yes.

There are differneces between the classes, yes. But there are a large number of the class features are the same as another class's. The worst is two same-class different-build characters (eg high CHA warlord vs. high INT warlord) where there is no functional difference in how they play at all. Oh sure, slightly different set of class features, but most of them don't matter. You pick this over that and all you get is an ability that you save until Y then you use it. Doesn't matter which ability you pick, they more or less fill the same niche of use, even if they have different effects.

Which in teh end is why I prefer Base 3.5 liberally massaged with Black Company Rules in a custom world... There is so much diversity available with the Black Company Ruleset added in, you can have the same idea and choose a different background with almost identical builds (Background changes a few things) after that and the characters will be greatly different in style and flavor...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Exactly.

Now, I have no idea what Black Company Rules are, but their relevance I do understand.

Wish my group had Silent Pete back. My god that man created on of the most interesting D&D games I'd ever seen or heard of. He was also a munchking twinker at heart (and had distain for munchkins--sorta like guys who are pick pockets for the cops--he knew when it was OK and when it wasn't) so it didn't really matter how well or how poorly you built your character, it would both be not as good as the world you're in as well as having a place in the party.

Due to large party size my first character ended up in a small niche that someone else was already in (was trying out a new class--the...knowledge based fighter from that...one...book and was competing with the knowledge based wizard for the limelight) so I talked to the GM and we built me a new character and got them swapped out.

Best part was I hadn't managed to inform everyone at the table, so Jim (damn you Tennessee! We want Jim back! FYI Jim wrote the novela linked in my sig, and is an evil mastermind) playing two characters at that point as he built both--brother sister pair--and the guy playing the brother decided he didn't want to show up, was fighting really really hard so my character didn't get dragged back to dwarven prison on some charge the GM thought up.

That game was fucking awesome (non-Euclidean dungeon? SURE!) and I wish we could continue.

Black COmpany is a set of novels written by Glenn Cook... the Ruleset is 3.5 D&D with a lot of tweaks...the magic system is re-worked and is much more playable and dynamic than the standard Magic System in D&D and the classes are a lot more flavorful... would take too much time to really tell you all the perks of the system, but suffice it to say that the rules were a godsend and completely changed how the world actually functions... now it is so much more believeable (suspension of disbelief is no longer an issue, like it often is in the Forgotten Realms)...

Keep the Faith

I'll try and find it. My group seems to have moved on to better (or at least newer) systems. Like ShadowRun.

I really like it...

As for new/other systems, I still play them as well... I run a World of Darkness game, as well as a Star Wars game (and my D&D Game has been running for close to 20 years off and on), and I play in a World of Darkness game and Earthdawn... Still My Shadowrun is a weekly addiction that I am loathe to give up...

Keep the Faith

I know what you mean. When I graduated college and moved back home I decided that I could still be in 1 game a week, as driving into the city once a week was doable for the foreseeable future. Right now we're actually doing two games, SR and Alpha Omega on alternating weeks (different GMs, but mostly the same group).

Yeah... before I got married, I was gaming 3-5 times a week... with no end in sight...
After marriage and a son, well, i get to game 2 day s a week, one of which my wife participates in (Yay for those wives that game)... My friday night game is all to myself and it is Shadowrun (My wife does not like Shadowrun anyway, so this actually works for me)...

Keep the Faith

So.... no Elminster?

Nope... No Elminster...

Keep the Faith