The point is that if you're going to allow it, then bitch about it, it's your fault as the GM. Not the player's, not the quality's.

Astral Hazing is a big negative. The simple fact that you won't benefit much from healing magic, alone, is significant. That you get a notable benefit out of it as well is a moot point; several negative qualities give boons (right off the top of my head there's In Debt, Day Job, and certain Mysterious Implants). But if you don't play up the negatives of a negative quality (such as not bothering to have the people you're In Debt to come looking for the money, or not having a Day Job interfere with your life in the shadows), why are you even allowing it as a negative quality?


In the case of Astral Hazing it is, because it comes with the hassle of being a changeling. That would be part of the "if you don't play up the negatives" clause. Again: If you're allowing players to take metagenic qualities and just treating them as normal, regular people with any other quality, you're failing to do your job as the GM. Because they're not normal, regular people. They're SURGE freaks, one way or another. The individual benefits/hindrances of each quality is only a part of the overall package of being one.

Japp thats pretty much it.

Negative Qualities are just that. Negative stuff, sure if you let people get away with incompetency at space shuttles, they get away with astral hazin being too good.

The only point id bitch about, that its not worth 10 GP for a nonawakened character, if he cybers up. An essence 4+ char can really fuck up a group. Sitting in the same car? Even essence 1 is "Yikes".

So basically if you see someone cybering up to 0.2 essence and stacking astral hazing on top, id smell a whole warehouse of fish (like mages that always take the NQ for doulbe essence cost of cyber yet dont even have cyber eyes). In many cases it balances out, but those special cases, the GM has to spot em, and take appropiate action.

Sure it comes with negatives. The positives just massively outweigh the negatives. Magic resistance is 5 points per +1 die to resist and maxes at +4 dice I think. Astral Hazing provides a ridiculous amount more protection than that. if you removed all the flaws the benefits would be a positive quality that costs more than 35 points so no one could have it. It doesn't have 50+ points in negatives in order to make this a 15 point negative metagenic quality. You can play up the negatives all you want and it still wont be a flaw unless for some reason you decide the team never faces magic.

That's true for… well, anything.

Guess what – with Magic Resistance, you don't benefit from healing magic at all.

And it's a positive Quality. Not all qualities are equal or balanced.
In fact, being a changeling with blue hair is less of a hassle by itself than being <insert wrong metatype for the neighborhood here>. Basically, such general statements are wrong, even RC puts the negative modifier for cases that are outlandish. (Which, given the local subculture, will vary a great deal, even for Astral Hazing: On earth, awakened won't touch someone like that with a 10ft. pole – in space, you'll need one to keep them away.)
It doesn't matter if it's a negative quality or a positive one for that, though – having a beak may cost you points and be classed as a positive quality, but it does make you a freak. In fact, it doesn't matter if the characters outlandishness is based on cyberware, bioware, genetech or metagenetics.

Metagenetiv nightvision is pretty much a normal quality… it was even in SR3. Not treating a character with that like an outcast is not failing your job as a GM. Additionally, it's even possible for characters to have negative metagenetic qualities if they are neither changeling nor subtype.

No. Certain outlandish metagenetic qualities will get you the freak modifier, some won't. As will outlandish modifications.
It's a "looks like a freak" modifier, not a general "is a changeling" modifier.

So Does Astral Hazing Lower your magic attribute for Physical Adept abilities??

hi hi

Just because a spirit cant get close to you doesn't mean it cant hurt you. There's lots of ways a spirit can attack someone from a distance. Have you ever had a speeding automobile spin out of control, boat capsize, airplane crash into the ground, or ceiling fall on your head?

Humanis anyone? Whether Surge are genetic freaks, or another metavariant is a valid in game debate. If Surge are simply genetic freaks of their metatype, then trolls and dwarves and such are also just freaks of the human overall type.

You're free to think whatever you like, but that doesn't make you correct. If you can't grasp the full extent of the negatives associated with astral hazing, even after many of them have been brought up in the course of this thread, then so be it. There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has. Especially, you know, if you are/have a GM who actually has the balls to step in and do his job.


What makes you say that? All Magic Resistance does is give you extra dice on a resistance test and prevents you from being a voluntary subject. Heal does not require a voluntary subject. In fact, only a few spells do. Increase Reaction and Shapechange, for instance, require one.


I'm pretty sure I said that already. Are you just being intentionally obtuse? Wait, nevermind, this is Dumpshock.


Sure does. It does everything a negative background count does, with you at the center of it. "Aspected" is a bit of a misnomer. It's aspected all right, just not in a way that you or any other tradition can benefit from.

^ that is so sadly fitting somehow

"Hey, dwarves are short." "OMFG Humanis!!!"

Yer dwarves deviate from the baseline the human. Everyone else is a different level of freak, via Surge/Metatype or cyberware doesnt matter. Its just a different deegree of freak. And when those count is up to the GM and his own view of metahuman purity, in my world some freaks can get by real easy in the right area.

A misconception, obviously – never-mind.

Didn't see an answer to this yet:

As I recall, any magic-based powers they have are suppressed once their magic hits zero. It does not, however, harm them in any way.

So ghouls would lose their astral sight, vampires wouldn't be affected any more than a mage unless they REALLY need to feed, pixies and centaurs shouldn't even notice.



Doesn't stop munchkins from trying, though.

Yes. It affects an awakened character's Effective Magic Rating just like Essence loss. So, anyone who hits the aura or tries to affect anything within the aura does so at Magic minus four.

And yeah, there are natural cases of background count out there, like Auschwitz or Chernobyl or the site of any other tragedy or massive occurrence, but do you really want your character to be a walking sore on the soul of the world? Honestly, nothing is more monstrous than Astral Hazing. It's like saying, "this character is an abomination against life itself."


Oh, and Dr. F, any visible changeling trait, like Extravagant Eyes counts as a level of Distinctive Style. Of course, that's why goggles are the business.

Not really... A Magically Resistant Character will never be able to lower his resistance, and is never a voluntary subject... therefore he will always roll his magic resistance to oppose spellcasting... AND it is apparently RAW, as the book (SR4A, page 91) says that Magic Resistance applies Against all spells, good and bad... and then uses Heal as an example in the descriptive... at a minimum, you would be rolling the Magic Resistance Dice, at the most beneficial, you would combine it with the relevant attribute in the resistance test...

As for the number of Voluntary Spells...
Health is at 39% (9/23)
Detection is just at 21% (8/38)
Manipulation is the lowest of those that have this distinction at 5% (3/60 of which one is a class of Spells - Critter Form)
None for Combat or Illusion Spells
So more than a few at least...

Keep the Faith

Resistance Test != "don't benefit from healing magic at all."

Read the Quality Dr. Funkenstein... The Quality applies to all Magic, as indicated by the fact that it explicitly applies to a Spell (Heal) that is only a success test... this is not AT ALL, as you say, but you could apply up to 4 Dice to resist the spell...

I don't make the rules, I just read them...

Keep the Faith

Sheesh. Why don't you try to actually read? Resisting a spell does not mean the character "doesn't benefit from healing magic >>>AT ALL<<<." Note the subtle emphasis.

The Heal spell does not require a voluntary subject. So yes, if a mage casts Heal on you, you have to roll Body+4 dice with each hit negating his hits on the Spellcasting Test. But you still benefit from healing magic, just not as much as your non-Magic Resistance twin can.

If you're going to tell people to read, do it yourself first. The fact that you think I'm the one who said "at all" just drives the point home.

If you will look at the quote below...



So, please show me where I said AT ALL anywhere in this quote... Please.... You can't can you?

Well, here is the next one...



Again... please show me where I said AT ALL (other than in support of what you said previously)... Oh, you can't... That's right...

Now, here is your Quote...



It looks to me like you were the one that brought up the AT ALL statement, at which I agreed with you and said that you would get to resist the spell becasue that is what the book says...

Pretty clear to me that I am not the person who cannot read here... Especially since I agreed with you in the first place that there would be a roll to minimize the spell's effect... and a further point... Heal does not grant a normal resistance test, as it is a success test, so by a fairly limited application of resistance, you should only receive the Magic Resistance Dice to actually resist...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith...

Your inability to comprehend anything you read is truly astonishing.

Here's a hint: Try re-reading the post you were originally replying to and the subsequent responses thereof. And actually read it, take a moment to re-read it, take another moment to try and figure it out, and finally think REALLY hard on what's being said as opposed to what you desperately wish it were saying in your little imaginary world of make-believe. I know it can be difficult for some people, but I have every confidence in you.

Here's another hint: If a given quote wasn't said by you, chances are it wasn't said by you.

Here's yet another hint: It has jack-all to do with you.

What a shame Dr. Funkenstein... you have not changed since you were last here... Pity... I had such high hopes for you...
The fact that I was agreeing with you must have just slipped your mind... no worries though...

Keep the Faith

I think Astral Hazing is actually fairly priced. You just have to take into the consideration the commoness of wards. Any place that isn't a corner convenience store or a middle class or below home is going to be warded, they're that cheap. And any place with magical security that has someone Astrally perceiving the front door is going to outright deny a Hazing character from entering and knocking out their ward (the things may be cheap, but they still take hours to put into place). So any place that can afford a ward and a watcher spirit is going to bar a Hazing character from entering the building. In additon, sneaking into most secure places is pretty much impossible, even standing next to a force 6 ward is likely going to alert the warding magician to your prescence when the strength of the ward fluctuates. You might even end up with an evil twin effect if there's someone else with Astral Hazing committing criminal acts, someone who Assenses him and you isn't likely going to be able to tell the difference and your Hazing character could end up getting arrested for a crime he didn't commit (which might be an interesting idea for a run...). And that's not even counting all of the stigma you'd get from anyone who could perceive your aura who would think you are basically pure evil. Astral Hazing can provide a lot of benefits, and if the GM is ignoring the penalties of Hazing then yeah it's a ridiculous negative quality, but really there are a lot of really bad penalties for the quality making it a pretty legitimate "gotta take the bad with the good" sort of thing.

Yeah, You have really got to hate that Evil Twin Effect... Ruins a perfectly good afternoon...

Keep the Faith

Nicely said, and I couldn't agree more. I've been trying to say that from the start, but I have a bad tendency to not be quite as poetic in my words.

So is yours.

It's a good thing I wasn't talking to Rotbart, huh? Also, considering it was Tymeaus who decided to delve into it for whatever bizarre reason, thanks for reinforcing my point for me. Here's a quick flowchart of events.

1: Rotbart brings up that Magic Resistance has its negatives, too, and states that it prevents you from benefiting from Heal at all.
2. Funkenstein points out that isn't completely correct and that Magic Resistance simply interferes with Heal and only prevents voluntary spells from functioning.
3. Rotbart acknowledges the minor mistake about not being able to benefit from Heal and the exchange is concluded.
4. Later, Tymeaus shows up and tries to tell Rotbart that he didn't really make a mistake, pointing out what was already stated.
5. Funkenstein reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from the spell at all. See point #1.
6. Tymeaus repeats what he just said.
7. Funkenstein once again reinforces the point that a resistance test is not the same as an inability to benefit from Heal at all.
8. Tymeaus turns everything into a personal attack and starts yelling about how he never said that Magic Resistance prevented you from being Healed and, omg, the world revolves around him.
9. Funkenstein gets grumpy and points out that no one was talking about him and his already nullified argument from what is now long, long ago.
10. Dracos shows up and somehow tries to make it look like Funkenstein has no idea what's going on.
11. Funkenstein sighs and types up a quick flow chart of events, despite knowing people will still be too dense to comprehend these events even after half-reading it.

Ok, let's see if I can make everyone agree on the same topic.
Someone casts a healing spell at subjects A and B, subject A has magic resistance 4 and B doesn't.

Subject A will resist the spell (even if he didn't want to resist) throwing 4 dice or 4 dice + body/will?
And subject B will not resist, right?

At least, this is what I understood, and if I'm wrong, please forgive me for not being so bright.

I think I've seen 3 different people saying the same thing and one of them doesn't agree with the other 2.

Not too bizarre of a reason actually...
It was done to point out that he was not actually working under a total misconception...

Keep the Faith

That's exactly it, Shinobi. And Astral Hazing works completely differently, lowering the Force (and thus the benefit and, I believe, allowed net hits) of the spell by 4.

From what you have above, It Looks right to me Brazillian_Shinobi...

Keep the Faith

Which just goes to prove that you are still a monumental ass when you want to be... And yes, I know, You are the one that is oh so put upon in the exchange... well, that is okay, it will pass eventually...

Oh Yeah... That is right, Solution 1 and Solution 2... I remember... Got it...

Keep the Faith

And You're free to think whatever you like, but that doesn't make you correct. If you can't grasp the full extent of the positives associated with astral hazing then so be it. There's a ton, and far more than bloody Magic Resistance has.

Look you want to disagree on which is bigger the negatives or the positives good for you. It isn't something you can prove and it snot something I can prove. You being rude just makes you an ass.

Well, each of your ideas about the positives an negatives of Astral Hazing aside, whoever wrote the changeling rules obviously thought the negatives outweighed the positives enough to make it a 5 point negative quality.

I don't actually much like Astral Hazing as a whole. Its positive benefits tend to outright punk most offensive magic and its negative aspects tend to royally screw over the Hazed character. It doesn't really seem to bring that much to the game when used by a character, not in terms of uniqueness or fun. I don't think I'll allow it at all in any game I run. I don't like such an extreme example of positives and negatives in a single quality.

Considering that any positives are equated (and arguably outclassed) by the negatives, no, you are wrong. For every Stunbolt you reduce by 4 points of Force, you have a Heal being reduced by 4 points of Force. Just like with Magic Resistance, except with the difference that MR only grants some extra resistance dice (of which you can still potentially benefit even from most Force 1 beneficial spells, just with fewer hits). Unlike Magic Resistance, however, you impact the capabilities of your allies unless you also happen to have an Essence of 0 (which has its own negatives associated with it; a single successful attack by an Essence Draining creature = bye bye to you), and even then you still do if you hang around an area for a couple of hours. Magic Resistance doesn't set off wards and other magical alarms. Magic Resistance doesn't turn your aura into a beacon of "kill this guy first." Magic Resistance doesn't require you to be a Changeling. Magic Resistance doesn't destroy the environment and attract all kinds of nasty astral beasties to investigate and possibly even intervene. Magic Resistance doesn't include anywhere near the other many notable hindrances that Astral Hazing does. Unless you, as a GM, decide to ignore it. As multiple people -- not just myself -- have pointed out numerous times. And when you do, you really do only have yourself to blame. And this is true of all qualities, good and bad.

Again: It's identical to the problems of In Debt. If you ignore the implications of it, bam, you get 30 free Build Points and 30,000 nuyen at character creation. Woohoo! Oh, but what's that, there's negatives associated with it? Who cares? We're going to ignore it so we can rant and rave about how unbalanced In Debt is for giving you those 30 BP and 30k nuyen.


Except it is. See above for an example.


People always assume I'm rude even when they're the ones being rude. Case in point: Have I ever called you an ass? No? You certainly don't seem to have an trouble throwing names around, though.

Being loud, opinionated, and blunt doesn't mean someone is attacking you. But thin-skinned people sure seem to take it that way around here. See Solution #2 below. And please take advantage of Solution #1 while you're at it if it's such a problem.

How does someone know that another person has Astral Hazing? How does a mage (or anyone) know that the Background Count he is walking into is due to the person with Astral Hazing and not due to something else?

I think a mage would probably use Assensing. In a crowd, how does the mage know that it is that guy with the Astral Hazing? With the necessary hits on the test, the mage probably can tell that it is that guy. But lacking those hits, is it obvious who it is?

In a crowd, maybe not so much, but you have to realize that Astral Hazing is basically a cloud of evil energy surrounding the character. Nothing else produces an effect like that besides cyberzombies. Normal background count infuses an area, but Astral Hazing is an extremely powerful background count centered on a single individual. You might have to switch between Astral and normal vision to tell exactly who is producing the effect considering that a Background count gives a penalty to Astral Perception equal to its rating (so -4 for Astral Hazing) but figuring out where the evil cloud of energy is coming from would be rather easy.

Mechanically we know that it is a Background Count centered on a single individual.

But how does someone tell the difference between a Astral Hazing BC and a "normal" BC? Can a character actually tell that it is really a cloud of evil energy coming from a single source without making the Assensing hits? Can a character tell the extent of that Background Count (without the hits) and extrapolate that it is from a single source since it is going to be a circle around some person?

That moving BC that always moves with a certain individual?

Considering how small the background count is compared to most (only a few meters at most), it wouldn't be hard at all to pinpoint who it was and what a strange oddity it was that it was moving.

Ooh, I like solution #2!

And I might start using #1 if I can ever remember who it is that consistently doesn't show an ounce of brains and resorts to flaming rather than debate.

You wouldn't be able to tell the exact background count rating, but considering that a background count has a noted visual effect (the penalty to perception tests) it should be apparent on the Astral Plane without requiring an assessnsing test, because things that are obvious on the Astral Plane don't require a test to see. As for its difference from a normal background count, normal background counts don't move and aren't generally centered on one person. It would be like the difference between a fog in a city and a cloud that followed a person around everywhere. There might be some difficulty in determining that there was a person in the middle of that fog, but with a little observation you could certainly figure it out. Its description would go something like this- "You see a distortion when you perceive the Astral Plane. Your mage experience tells you that it's a background count, but it's a 2 meter wide dome and moving. If you have high enough assensing you might be able to spot a living aura at its center. When you turn off your Astral vision you see a man standing where the cloud exists on the Astral. If you switch between Astral Vision and normal vision you can see that wherever the man goes, the cloud follows." If the person was in a crowd it'd be difficult to tell exactly who was producing the background count but Astral Hazing acts so much differently and tends to be so much smaller than a normal background count that it shouldn't be hard for a player to figure out what it is from a simple description.

Even (especially!) considering that a Background Count(even a Rating 4 one that Astral Hazing produces) has an effect on Assensing, I do not think its extent should be one of those things that are immediately obvious.

"You feel a disturbance on the astral plane. You think it is some kind of background count and there is an aura/there are auras(if a crowd) in the area of background count." - This description is without an Assensing roll, the background count causing a distortion and the aura of the guy (since the guy isn't hiding) should be immediately noticeable.

If you roll high enough on the Assensing test, you get a more accurate description on its strength and area of effect. If you roll high enough you will Assense that the person in the center is actually the cause of that Background Count.

For example for 1 or 2 hits on the test, "You think that the Background Count is fairly strong, certainly stronger than the crime scene usual but less than a mana warp. You get the impression that the Background Count covers a fairly small/large area/the room/the corridor/etc. The area of Background Count seems to fluctuate, you get the feeling that it is not stationary."

Your description of a 2m dome is more appropriate to 4+ hits, I feel.

Would you require a character to make a test to estimate the area affected by a smoke grenade? If the smoke grenade covered a diameter that was 6 feet in length? That's a physical example of something that provides -4 to perception checks. Honestly, the distortion is so severe and covers such a small area that it really should be immediately apparent to anyone just glancing on the astral plane. Maybe it doesn't look like smoke, but if it really does look like a heat distortion it's severe enough to make whatever you see through it look like something reflected in a fun house mirror.

Yes, I would. The smoke cloud is there, that part is immediately noticeable. I may even tell the player that it is a small or large cloud, but estimating accurately how big the cloud is would require a roll.

I have been trying to find some rules or guidelines on how to describe Background Count. As far as I can find, there is no specific rules for it. You may be right, an astral perceiving character can immediately tell how dense it is and how large it is. Right now, all I have is a semi-relevant statement that domains are made up of bright eddies and swirling pools of mana that are easily recognisable. If there is something in Digital Grimoire that touches on this, I'd be much obliged if you can share the relevant rules.

You sense an area where ALL COLOR AND LIFE IS BEING DRAINED OUT OF. It is clearly a PERVERSION OF ASTRAL SPACE THAT YOU SHOULD NOT STEP INTO.

It is also moving. Toward you.


Sorry, had to say it. Wasn't an argument just me seeing some humor in it.

Magic and Summoning pool of 4 and I can send watchers all day at the rate of one a complex action and use them as my BC measuring device.

It's wherever my watchers keep popping out of existence.

If a ward disappears because of the BC, will the creator be warned just like he is when a ward is attacked by a mage?

I think so. The mage recognizes that the barrier is gone, i don´t think that it is important because of what reason it crashed.

Yes I have read all the negatives and if I allowed it in the game I'd use them all. But totally shutting down offensive magic is still better. The thing is these things can't be judged in a vacuum, for example, "you impact the capabilities of your allies unless you also happen to have an Essence of 0". Well who the else is going to take it, you aren't taking this as a mage, it is virtually a big neon sign saying if you are a combat monster take this. They will need heals a hell of a lot less often because now there one weakness is not just reduced but basically gone, heck they are more resistant to magic than they are to physical damage. This will only set off wards of less than force 4, but yes it sets off alarms and wards, but since you are aware of it it can be used to your advantage almost as often as it hurts you. It gives a beacon of kill this guy first to who? The people who can't really hurt him? The penalty is all the people who I'm virtually invulnerable to hate me, that ins't that big of a hit. Don't get me wrong corp sec mage can say shoot that dude fast, he is bad mojo so it will come up but so be it. Yes it attracts beasties etc. Yes that is a bigger flaw than magic resistance, but being a permanent anti magic shell is more powerful than all of that combined.



Except again it gives larger benefits than all the negatives combined. It would be like if in debt said you have to pay back 4,000 every month but you get handed 10,000 every month from the tooth fairy. Yeah it has a flaw but the positive is bigger than the negative.



No you are just rude.
When you say things like "If you can't grasp the full extent of the negatives associated with astral hazing, even after many of them have been brought up in the course of this thread, then so be it." That is you just being a rude asshole. You are not trying to discuss things, you aren't just loud and opinionated, you are insulting someones intelligence because you disagree with them. People can fully grasp what has been said in a thread and still come to a different conclusion.

I don't know... a -4 Magic to all of your magically active buddies' powers would be a significant negative. Sure it helps with incoming offensive magic but honestly, the stuff that Magic can do FOR you is pretty useful. -4 to that is harsh.

Harsh enough that none of my players wanted to deal with it... especially after I giggled like a madman when one player asked about it while reading Runner's Companion.