No, he also gave him absurdly high skills (Sorcery skill group at 12, really ?).

Meh, that just seems like the way not to do this.
You could get a much better effect without trampling on the rules just by giving him a Force 20ish Power Focus and an aspected domain to sit in.
Would be completely conceivable for Lofwyr to have access to artifacts like that, would still mean he just blows everything to smithereens with his spells, would show how vastly his ressources outshine everybody else's and it would be completely legal by RAW.
Yeah, I think I get how the author wanted to make a statement about Lofwyr still being above the rules and how he plays in a league that no player character could ever even hope to reach, but it just leaves a sour aftertaste when you do it like that.

Great dragons and IE's are very poorly implemented in the setting. They don't really interact with the game world, because they are statted out as overpowered Mary Sues who no-sell everything. They need to be powered down, to the point where a professional team of runners is something they could beat 9 out of 10 times in a straight fight, but to where things like shadowrunners or modern military vehicles are something they actually need to worry about, and take precautions for. Player characters should not be able to go around knocking off great dragons at will, but maybe, as the end of a high-powered campaign, such a confrontation should be possible (lower-powered campaigns might not ever even meet one, just occasionally hear about one in the news). Honestly, I have zero interest in watching a great dragon taking over a modern city, or hell, even Ehran and Harlequin having a goofy swordfight, if it's the equivalent of a non-interactive cut scene in a video game.

I'm not sure that's an enthusiasm I'd share, although I don't think it's ever come up; that's not really a level that we play at.

But I agree it's helpful to have the fictional world populated with people! That's absolutely necessary, or at the very least something I find desirable. If FastJack and Damien Knight didn't exist in Shadowrun, I feel the setting would be the weaker for it. What I don't personally need is several pages each of in-setting information about those characters, all lumped in together: something in a context [Damien Knight in Corporate Shadowfiles, FastJack in Denver, etc], yes, that's helpful to me, but not just all in a bowl together.

If a book of nothing but characters is going to be helpful for me, it'd need to be a different format altogether, with more, briefer entries, and a mixture of in-character and out-of-character information. There would be a few different classes of entry, from big names [Hans Brackhaus, Lugh Surehand] to major figures [mob bosses, prime runners] to basic stock NPCs [corporate accountant, talismonger], with diminishing levels of detail for each class, organized logically and indexed, and with GM quick-reference character sheets collected in the back.


Your basic people, places, things. Setting books with detailed locations, populated by interesting characters [with stats]. Books of new gear, and not just "more of the same gear," but new types of gear: there was a day that "bioware" didn't exist in Shadowrun, and the first day it did was an exciting one. Maybe some gear that exists outside the realm of the shadowrunner. And contacts, characters, and NPCs that flesh out the world, from boat mechanics to security guards to dog trainers to nuclear engineers. And maps. Lots of maps. Good maps.

Vehicle creation rules would be great, too, but it's probably not worth doing just for me.

Some of it depends on how you view the power level of various entities in the setting. I have no conceptual difficulties with the idea that Dunkelzahn [like, the oldest non-Horror in the setting] can level a city without much fear, but those entities should be few and far-between, in my view. Dragons and elves that haven't been alive for five or ten thousand years should be in a different class altogether from those who have.

Also, they're for Metagame information and string-pulling. Not to actually be doing things themselves.

That's what Shadowrunners are for, after all. IEs and Dragons are few in number and valuable. Shadowrunners are disposable, but very, very useful pawns.

Of course, remember that if a Pawn works well enough, they can become a Queen quite efficiently.

I'm of two minds when it comes to things like IE and ancient dragons being given statistics. On one hand, having a skill of 6 represents nigh-mastery of the skill in question. There's the odd person who can surpass it and get to 7 (via quality), but that represents having insights that leave even the masters in your wake. On the other hand, having ages to refine and hone a skill set might in theory put you higher -- but without the mental and physical capabilities to retain what you've learned and developed, you're going to forget as much as you learn. The 'brain full' scenario.

While I can understand the intent behind something like 'Sorcery Group 12', I'm thinking it would run better through attributes over skills. A character with impressive attributes gets larger dice pools overall, you don't need to break the 'max 6' rule to make them impressive. Lofwyr, for example, has Will 24, Magic 27. Just looking at that, you know his dice pools are impressive. An extra 6-8 dice added on will be almost a drop in the bucket - and this makes sense. His knowledge is vast - but his capability of retaining knowledge is what sets him apart. An Immortal Elf, I can see having mental attributes in the 6-9 range, maybe even tipping into the 11-12 range, but their skills would be limited to the 5-7 range, which makes sense. They'd still be impressive, and powerful, and in a one-on-one fight they're very likely to win against most normal opponents - but their edge is in experience and cleverness, not in the 'I'm stronger than you'. You don't beat an IE because they've got plans within plans and contingencies for everything you throw at them, not because their statline's necessarily better than yours (though it helps).

Now, if perhaps someone who's ancient and knowledgeable is somehow capable of removing the cap on skills, then maybe. If it was something like 'when 100 years you hit, your limit goes up by one, then 200 years after that, then 300 years after that, etc, etc, drek etc'. So a 600 year old elf might be allowed to have skills at 9, a 1000 year old elf can have skills at 10, 1500 years is 11, 2100 years is 12, etc. I could see something like this being in the rules - and not mentioned since no PC is going to already be that old.

---

That said. What I like in game books? A blend of crunch and fluff. I liked the original Tir n'an Og book (sp?) because it had a lot of interesting stuff in the front end, and gobs of crunch in the back end. (I wish the Path of the Wheel would be fully reprinted for 4E. Honestly...) The Tir Tiarngire book disappointed me because it had nothing in the back - I was hoping to see some of the advancements that the Tir had, but got nothing for my troubles. I think the former book was the first introduction to bioware (which was cool), and the morph-seeking rifle was pretty awesome as well.

So, books with more tech, metamagic, totems, echoes, etc, are always a plus in my books. A setting book detailing what the setting is like, and then some of the stuff to be found there which makes it unique, is always cool. Advancing the technology and magic of the setting, letting it creep forward from time to time, is excellent. It was why I was interested in Spy Games and War, actually -- I had always wanted to see the covert and military side of Shadowrun. I'd love to see a proper mercenary book, with details on how to run full-blown Merc campaigns. I want to see advancements in robotics, and linear frames, and anthro drones. Details on the metaplanes and deep resonance would be cool, too.

In my opinion it's questions like these that show Street Legends is completely out of touch with the fan base as I know it. Now maybe there's this giant population of Shadowrun gamers who love it somewhere-but I've yet to see much of that.

Have you seen it?

No, I've not been up to date with current releases for a while and just heard about Lofwyr getting official stats when reading this thread, so I was wondering how they pulled it off.

Hey, is it just me, or does Lofwyr not have any spells I couldn't have? What's he doing with all those Combat Spell Design dice?

If I remember correctly, Dragons have every spell in the books, canonically (with no need to take up valuable word count reiterating that). Not sure where I read that, though...

The SR4a main book - current canon, anyhow - does indeed say that all dragons, "know most spells," but that's what I'm saying: Street Legends "[took] up valuable word count" listing the spells Lofwyr has, and not only doesn't he have "most" spells, but he doesn't have any that aren't in the book! That seems...[edit]non-optimal.[/edit]

I have to agree with you 3278. I would like to see a more basic stock NPCs. Though I do enjoy the idea of a book bringing together the major players, I think it would have been a lot more useful to include those stock guys. Like if I go up against a dragon, who does he have as his bodyguard? or The Big corps. Having played shadowrun with guys who played it way back in the day, there is a certain mystic quality to guys like the Red Samari. A nice write up of them beyond a few lines in the core book would be great.

The only thing different is that I rather enjoy one book that collects everyone. So I need stats of a LoneStar agent, it is rather time consumming trying to remember exactly which mission or sourcebook that was in, easier to just fetch a compilation of them. And since a lot of the Characters in Street Legands appear in mulitple sources that have already been printed, this seems the best viable route to take.

And I think State of the Art 2072 has a good selection of vehicles that aren't just redone from the other books.

Overall I do enjoy the idea of Street Legands. I can't wait to actuall be able to buy it. (I've already spent a

Yeah, (Contacts + Prime Runners + Mr Johnson's Little Black Book) > Street Legends. Give us the full spectrum of characters, in one place, with lots of quick-reference sheets.


This would be interesting: how do Red Samurai really differ from Ares Firewatch teams? What are the differences in training and treatment and attitude? It would add depth beyond, "Here's another Rating 3 paper cutout target that shoots at you while you break in."

SL took up word count listing Lofwyr's favorite spells, not all the spells he has. Not only is there the footnote for dragons and what spells they tend to know, but there's also a note early in SL that points out the likes of Lofwyr, Hestaby, and Lugh aren't posted with conclusive spell lists; it's their "go to" spells, perhaps, but certainly not the limit of their knowledge.

I'm with you on some disappointment when it comes to the lack of custom mojo, don't get me wrong. But the guys and gals in SL don't have their whole spell list posted, just their favorites.

Ah, that certainly makes more sense! Thank you.

It may make more sense, but I'm not really sure why they had to do it. I don't need Lowfyr's favorite list. I can make that in a heart beat. A simple paragraph could have covered it:

Beings like Lowfyr are among the most powerful magic users in Shadowrun. They'll have whatever load out of spells you as a GM see fit to use at your table. Okay now on to stuff you really need our help in coming up with....

One thing which I wish I'd seen more of was more 'unique' things among the street legends - metamagics, spells, cybernetics, or what-have-you which isn't seen elsewhere. It would be one of those things which makes the person stand out. (I love, by the way, the free spirit-as-motorcycle. That was particularly awesome). One of the Horizon adventures was also inspired, with the background and design of the singer. When I saw that, I was (!), as I was for the stats for Ehran's daughter and the metamagic she had. These kind of things make the NPCs 'pop', because PCs do this kind of thing -- making up spells, creating new metamagics, etc, to separate them from the crowd. Having NPCs do this is, I think, awesome, because it makes these people seem more individual beyond their write-up.

We have to find a way to add a +1 style button to this board.

I guess my opinion is that a five or ten thousand year old being that can level modern cities with no problem doesn't fit in Shadowrun. What purpose do they serve, other than author wanking and lameass Earthdawn tie-ins? It's like sticking Superman in Sin City. In a game like Shadowrun, everyone should be vulnerable, no matter how tough they are. I have no problem with dragons that can overwhelm most shadowrunner teams, shrug off most small arms fire and spells, and have unique abilities and magics. But they take it too far when dragons can raze entire cities, or take them over, and have the world collectively shrug, because, hey, what can you do?

What purpose does the sun serve, or weather? We can't destroy those forces of nature, either, but they sustain and destroy us nevertheless. Still, your view of Shadowrun as being egalitarian in its vulnerability makes perfect conceptual sense to me, as well: it's a question of style, and I think both have their merits.

It's a matter of taste. Some tend to think that the big IEs and Great Dragons shouldn't need stats, because, well, you don't really need stats for a nuke or a tsunami, and they're comperable.

Other people tend to think that they need to be defined and quantified, just so we'll know what the limits are, even if they're huge.

Still others want everyone to play by the same rules. If Immortal Elf #2 has a special Thing that the rules don't apply to, people get upset because they're "cheating".

As you might imagine, it's hard to please everyone.

Hell, I'm of two [or more!] minds on this, myself! On the one hand, I feel like giving stats to high-level NPCs cheapens them, and ignores the wildly differing power levels different groups play at. On the other, I feel like if your system can't scale to support all the entities in it, you probably should redesign your system. It's definitely a difficult issue to resolve.

I'll have to take the opposing view. I think that IEs and city-destroying dragons do fit in Shadowrun. The sheer power an ancient dragon would have should be phenomenal, and I've often felt disappointed that 'city level' spells haven't existed in most fantasy RPGs. I also think that IEs and dragons like Lofwyr should have stats, simply as a point of reference. Can a PC party take one out? Perhaps. With planning and preparation. The attributes presented for such individuals sets the baseline for such things. The game master knows what the oppositions limits are, and the shadowrunners can try to deal with the threat if it exists.

As for the same rules? Yes, I believe in the rule of 'anything an NPC can do, a PC can theoretically do'. Which means it is nice to have everything laid out in the rules -- just in case. It doesn't guarantee that a PC will get such things, but they are potentially viable. For example, the process which made the Immortal Elves. Can it be duplicated now? Is it possible for there to be 'new' IEs? By the very existence of Ehran's daughter, the answer is 'yes'. So, what's an Immortal Elf, and can a PC be one, for example?

Isn't there someone on the boards with a "Wreck Buildings" area of effect spell?

May I bring your attention to this game called "Earthdawn...?"


It's considered rude. Actually, it's widely forbidden, and is the reason for the schism between elves and dragons in Shadowrun: immortal elves are the offspring of elves and dragons, or descendants of those offspring, originally created to be a servant race for the dragons in the second world. [Frosty is immortal by virtue of her immortal elven father, not because one of her parents was a dragon; they stopped doing that, mostly, in the second world, after the rebellion, although there was some renegade Children-of-the-Dragon creating going on in the fourth world here and there, including with dwarves and humans.] PCs could be immortal elves [although it's certainly not in the rules that they can be!]: they're just ageless, not unkillable, so it's not a particularly game-breaking power to give a player. I've had immortal elf PCs in my games without any noticeable effect: it's typically just not an issue in any way.

What I liked about Street Legends is that it is very different from 80% of the SR material that has EVER been published.

There have been statistics for NPCs in adventure supplements and Prime Runners etc, but telling the stories and giving statistics of the more famous SR personalities (from supplements and paper back fiction) has never been done before in a specific book until Street Legends.

Corporate Enclaves, Feral Cities were dissapointing imo because they resembled the same formats for every city sourcebook since SR1. There was no change in format. Over the years other RPG games such as L5R, Vampire the Masquerade were getting critical reviews on some of their city supplements which had more detail to them.

Personally, I loved Ghost Cartels because it was a mix between a classic SR sourcebook and the details provided for NPC statistics. The plots/adventures were not rail'roady' and the general framework of the plot threads were provided with maps of the complexes, a list of NPCs, and a list of specific moving targets, drones, and their vehicles.

If you don't like what street legends presents, then don't buy it. But as a fan I loved it and give kudos to the Catalyst staff for trying to develop a book that deviated from the traditional norm of previous SR supplements and written material.

Mostly because the characters, as written in an earlier draft, were listed with every spell they knew. In several instances that felt off to a few of us, and we thought something needed to be changed, somewhere, to make it clear that Lofwyr and Lugh Surehand did, in fact, probably know Manaball...without either erasing the work the writers had put into such characters (by wholly scrapping the feel and flavor of their chosen spell lists), or bloating the word count by literally listing every single spell.

And so the great "These aren't all their spells, but they're their 'go-to' spells" compromise was born.

And obviously we should all support, with our time and hard earned cash the products we like. I disagree with just about everything you've said-I do agree that I support the Shadowrun staff, which is why even though I don't use or like certain products I still buy them. Because it's my hope if they have enough money and time they can then make the products I like.




I appreciate the answer. I hope next time they'll just skip that step altogether, and use the space for for the few things int he book that did rock-someone mentioned the motorcycle free spirit, and that was fun for me.

If I remember right, the idea of "unique" spells and stuff did come up, but we were worried about putting a bunch of new gear/rules/crunch into a book that was largely supposed to be fluff. There was the unique watcher spirits, but beyond that I think we largely steered clear of new rules for anything. Not taht it really mattered for the one piece I wrote anyways.

I agree that i'd love to see some new Dragon and Immortal Elf powers. Something that sets them apart. This would have been one place to put those, I suppose. I dunno.

Bull

That's what I liked, it maintains a level of similarity so they merge with older books on the same thing- just different places. Makes them more uniform.

I thought the idea of Cyberpunk was to do away with uniforms and to make your own unique way in society!

...

Oh, right. The BOOKS need to be uniform. Sorry.

This would have most definitely been one of the books to put it in. Conspiracy Theories would have been another one. The entire 'Immortal Elf' / 'Great Dragon Plot' concept would have been a perfect thing for slipping in ideas for what these creatures could do. As it stands, you could add it to the Street Legends PDF supplement, perhaps, or add a sort of mini-Conspiracy Theory PDF supplement, and have it go into that.

Just a thought. And yeah, even if a book is largely fluff, I do prefer some crunch in with it. And the unique watcher spirit was awesome - I loved the idea, as I did with the 'Essence Focus'. Those kind of things made my day when going through Street Legends, and I'd have loved even more the rules for crafting or conjuring such things. For example, with the Essence Focus - how would it help a magically active Cyber-Zombie? Or even a normal human? Would it buffer against the Essence Drain power, for example, taking the hit before the person's normal Essence gets hit?

Note that I didn't develop the Essence Focus; that was part and parcel of de Vries from back in 2nd ed when he first turned up in Prime Runners. All I did was appropriate the thing.

That said: I've got no idea how it would help a magically active cyberzombie. That notion never crossed my mind. Matter of fact, it never crossed anywhere in the same state as my mind (and I live in Texas; that's a lot of territory for that thought to stay out of).

The way I read it, however, as I was doing my research for de Vries, is that no, it doesn't take the hit first. It's more of an emergency cushion at the end, holding you up when you should, in fact, be dead. It would keep a normal human alive, but they'd be forever in a hurting status since they can't raise their Essence later; take that focus away from them, and they're toast.

For a vampire, though, those extra points of Essence, the ability to outlast an opponent when you're going though Essence like Pac-Man goes through dots in a maze...and you can regain it later...that can make it hugely beneficial.

None of this is canon, of course, and might change as I sit and think about it more later.

Interesting. Yeah, I guess it is a back-end sort of thing, but for a human, that could be incredibly useful, allowing them to appropriate more 'ware without having to worry about going into zombie-dom. And the usefulness for a vampire or other such creature is obvious. Thanks for keeping it in!