I'm updating the Space Technology thread, and I must say that Hazard Pay breaks some kind of record for contradicting previous Shadowrun canon dates -- sometimes giving different dates for the same event on the same page (for example, new info is that S-K acquired ESA assets but the date is given as both 2029 and 2025 on the same page (p. 120). The date that Ares acquired NASA is also different (but previous books couldn't agree on 2008 or 2016 either). Evo suddenly acquire the entire Russian space program since Corporate Guide, but that doesn't even get a date.

Makes updating a headache

Sort of an aside, I'm not really sure how defensible some of the space facts are, as presented (I'll let stuff like Lagrange points being places where "gravity has no effect" slide). For example, on p. 124:

-- The actual rules are not quite as dire as this makes out (p. 160) - albeit still incredibly pessimistic - but more problematic is the statement about the "temperature" of space and the note about hypothermia. Space isn't actually "cold" as such, and there have been animal experiments looking at the effects of vacuum and near-vacuum that note it is dangerous and deadly - but not necessarily in the sense as described here. Instead we get sci-fi tropes about turning into a icicle and explosive decompression.
-- The danger of space exposure is the vacuum (god forbid you pass out too, because then your stomach, bladder, and bowels may evacuate all at once) and the lack of air. Not "cold." This is stuff that could have been checked on Wikipedia. I'm curious what the source was for this hypothermia and dead within seconds material?

The number of mistakes in this chapter, regarding space hazards, the definition of low-Earth orbit and Lagrangian points, satcoms delays, SR timeline (especially on Yamatetsu mission to Mars), or even things like the year of Columbia first flight or the location of Andrews Air Base, led me to believe that no research at all was made for this chapter.

Probably. I'm willing to overlook weirdness if it's a bit obscure, as most of it is just annoying -- like why Kodiak Station even HAS a spaceport at all, how exactly Andrews and Groom Lake were "combined", the precursor consortium to Ares constantly being referred to as Ares, etc. It just drives me nuts because the chapter is constantly contradicting itself and other books on dates (like almost everything involving the Skyhook or Mass Driver), etc. I made my original thread back in 2010 it should have been easy to find by the freelancer.

The amount of spelling errors and gaffes (some sentences don't even have punctuation!) does amuse me though!

It really has a launch facility right now. I've been there.
http://www.akaerospace.com/

If only. I find that trying to dig up a specific thread from years back can be bothersome at best...

Reminds me of War!

-- I wonder if there was some editorial monkeying around that messed some stuff up in this chapter (haven't closely perused the other chapters except the rules/equipment). Purely as an in-universe document it reads ok, the shadowtalk isn't outrageous, the super space ore plot isn't annoyingly aggressive (and builds on similar hooks from earlier sources, actually - Wastelands had even weirder stuff like archaeologists on the moon). You have to pay attention to dates for most of the inconsistencies to come to light. At least when I did SR stuff I kept a very close eye on dates using a timeline I wrote, but some stuff still got changed in editing to match other writers or 'corrected'. I wonder if that happened here during text juggling. Or the writer was on a very tight timeline and didn't have time to reconcile dates from multiple drafts and possible freelancer comments.

-- And I retract my dig about easy to find my thread. I was updating it into 2011 but its not exactly page 1 if you don't filter by my name Same for my Hawai'i and Tir infodumps.

There was spoilers in a thread here a while ago, but as far as I understood the gist of the explanation. (wiki skimming may help), is that a dragon was involved as either the CEO, or a head honcho, or the power behind the board room.
And the corporation is basically founded on the idea of building habitable things in odd remote locations, like under sea.

Its basically an Earthdawn link. They're trying to figure out how to build better Kaers.

Reading through the thread, I had a question about the 'MORE ART MORE PRICE' aspect of the discussion - how much art has been reused from previous editions? I know cgl likes to do that with this old drone and stuff.
Seems kinda unfair to bill for more art that's just been copy-pasted and greyscaled, you know?

-official info from wayback-

Thanks Nath, I had lost that in a move between computers

I just got a look at this book, and has anyone seen the spell section in this thing?

Seriously, What The Fuck.

Inflict Disease is easily my most favorite broken spell now.
That or Rot.

My next Mysadept face is totally going to have Inflict Disease: Unexplainable Rashes and Inflict Disease: Acne.

Also the Ares Predator IV CW is flat out better than the normal one, and the snowthrower is HILARIOUS.

Knowing nothing else, I find it hilarious.

'SHONGO! Geek the sniper!"
"On it boss! " *casts spell*

A minute goes by, the sniper ventilates the whole team.

"Shongo, I could have sworn I saw you hit the sniper with a spell."
"I did boss. Dude's totally got Lupus. Life's gonna be pretty inconvenient for him."

Grandfather Nurgle is good to his Family.

No, that's, uh..... pretty much exactly how it works. Power = Force.

So what's broken about it (especially compared to classics like Stunball)? It seems very situationally useful to me.

It isn't limited in what kind of diseases you can take with it. You can now dodge the BP cost for being a vampire.
Dodging the essence and losing all your magic from being a newly infected is as simple as a possession spirit, cuz you get to use their essence instead of your own. Due to how magic loss works, you will instantly lose some when the transformation finishes unless you plan for it.

By the rules, characters who become infected lose control over their character, as if the character had died.

Maybe that was true in previous editions, but unless you can back that up with a page source, I'm going to go with the rules in the book that introduces the Infected as playable options.

As long as you do not mind the Tax on Karma in Play.

One problem, you don't get to choose what disease the spell causes(GM does that) so i would think twice before casting it on yourself

295, SR4a.

Witch is quite obviously trumped by the new rules for playing infected characters in Runners Companion.

There's no "quite obviously" with RAW. Unless the rules state they override previously printed ones, they do not.
Although getting canceraids instead of the needed kind of HMHVV is a hilarious possibility all by itself.

Seriously, this is an issue? No, print order MUST be taken into account when dealing with expansion books. If a book says 'here is new rules for this!' then they are pretty clearly new rules for things the original book didn't cover.


Also I can quote too. Note the section header AND the text!



Not good enough. You're not being subject to a Critter Power.

Of course, for things the original book did not cover.

Rules in the expansion books always override the older rules from the corebook.
Always have,always will.

Okay, lt's go down this Herp-a-derp line of thinking.

If the core book's ruling that "Infected are always NPCs" was still in force, why would the Runners' Companion waste so much ink and paper describing how to make Infected PCs ...?

Seriously. Use some brainpower on that question, just for a few moments.






With the one caveat that everything beyond the core book is and remains line-by-line optional, at the GMs sole discretion.

Where is that written?

Perhaps for playing the characters created using those rules? Those are character creation rules, after all.
That does not contradict characters infected during play becoming NPCs in any way.

Your kidding me, right?

Quite obviously trumped by new rules?

Runners Companion Publication Date: September 24, 2008
Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition Publication Date: August 19, 2009

Get your facts straight before trying to correct someone, otherwise you might end up looking like an idiot.

Bingo. Well argued, Fatum.

It's called "common sense".


.... which this displays a shocking lack of.

I mean, seriously. If Player A makes their character Infected from the start, that's okay ... but if Player B gets infected with an identical strain of HMHVV on their ninth shadowrun, then they lose the character even though there are rules for playing that very character ...?

Makes.

No.

SENSE.

It can make a little sense. Not a lot, but still some. I can make sense to prevent players from willingly getting their character infected and get advantage of it. The authors considered Infected is worth between 35 and 150 BP, or 70 and 300 karma. And I'm not sure there's anything you can do so easily in-game that can net you the equivalent of several hundred karma that way. Fluff-wise, infection can happen, but game-wise, that should be avoided.

Nice try retard, but get your own fact straight next time.
The Corebook from witch that quote is from is published in 2005.

RC, page 82: Infection In Play
No mention of characters becoming NPCs

Ok folks. You all agree to disagree. Now we return to the original topic of this thread.

I'm generally not one to slap someone with a day off right out the gate, but this is sorely tempting. Could you be more blatant perhaps? I'm going to refrain from blocking you out of hand so that you can take some time to scan up the Terms of Service, especially in regards to personal attacks and flaming.
We're seeing more of it on the boards lately. I'm personally getting very tired of it, and the less patience we have, the more likey we are to quickly toss out warnings and suspensions. Cut it out.

Well, yes. But for the particular bit of cheese Udoshi is suggesting, that page specifically says to refer to Infection power, which specifically says to turn the character into an NPC.
So all in all, I don't think the spell to be particularly badly designed, much less "the best broken spell around" (Slow, I'm looking at you).

Is inflict disease a toxic spell? Because it sounds like it should be restricted to toxic magicians/shamans.

Dude, we just tried to put out the fire and you're putting another gallon of gasoline to the fire. Not cool.

Please. Using your line of reasoning, Runner's Companion second printing trumps 4A anyway. (Also the turn into NPC deals with the Infection Power, while HMHVV and inflict disease don't use because it follows the disease rules. )

Also, copy-pasting rules doesn't count as new rules. Its still an old rule.

Edit: hey mods, is rules discussion being cut off by mod order, or is this just a reminder to keep discussions polite? Not sure what to do here.

Polite. Quote rules all day. A little tongue in cheek and the occassional smart ass remark happen. Getting snide though is getting on the nerves and the out right name calling and personal attacks are getting old though, especially when we've just told people to cut it out. Right after we've in-color mod posted is probably not the best time to be poking each other with sticks.

And frankly it's pissing me off personally. Luckily, it's not just me here.) We have a bunch of mods who have varying levels of patience and tolerance. It's a rare exception when something isn't reviewed by at least three mods. In-Post color text though is usually shoot from the hip attempts to rein things in.

So by all means,continue the discussion/arguements. Just please keep it civil.

Yeah, see, in the rules bit Sengir pointed out, it's said quite explicitly that
So no, you still can't turn into a vampire or a nosferatu that way from purely RAW standpoint. Besides, as previously stated,
So even if you could, the spell would be useless for that, or least very risky.


Was that one directed at me?
Frankly, I don't think Udoshi will argue his take on the spell is anything but a purely theoretical exercise in creative RAW interpretation unusable in real games, so it wasn't my intention to offend when calling it cheesy.

Nope, although your 'cheese' was certainly ill timed.

Just a polite request from an ordinary poster, guys, but could we move the vampire talk to another thread?

Reviewing Hazard Pay is kinda the goal here, and while this one spell is in there, it's not the book's core.

I wish I could *like* a post.

Actually, two posts.

I dunno, man, this thread was dead for one day short of 3 weeks until I necro'd it. If you want to Re-rail the discussion, please, by all means, post some interesting content from hazard pay.

Inflict Disease is not as bad as Convert Blood to Ichor. Also, the description of the new weapons on pg. 163 does not match the stats.
The Predator CW and the Ares Arctic Rifle lack on point of RC due to electronic firing. The HK-247 lacks the extended clip mod.
The HK Icethrowers description has an error in it [for every half-kilo of snow the weapon can fire up to three bursts. / the cylinder can hold up to three kilograms of snow (enough for nine bursts).]