When does melee combat come up during gameplay and what is its uses? Is it a vital or at least a useful skill for a shadowrun?

I've wondered about this for a while now because for nearly every use of a close combat weapon from fists to a katana can be replaced or bettered with the use of a firearm. Gangers in your way? Use a gun. Need to silently take out a guard? Sneak up and use a super silent pistol. Need to sneak a weapon in? Use a hold-out or a cyberarm gun. Need to beat someone up but no kill them? Use a taser.

I can see melee used in bar fights, but that's not that important for most games. It could also be used in some circumstances such as slitting a guard's throat or knocking out a wageslave or extraction target, but tasers or fully silenced firearms would work as well.

Then there is magic. I can see melee used a lot in astral combat (there really aren't any other ways to fight) and possibly used as a means to deal with spirits with weapon foci or the whole "power of self" thing.

Lastly and most importantly, it can be cool. While a John Woo gunfight is cool, sword fights or martial arts masters going at it can be even better at times.

So I'm curious, what do you think of the use of melee combat (from swords to martial arts) and what experiences have you had with it?

Should be noted that a silenced gunshot is not totally inaudible. Hard to hear, but still audible. Of course, a full-out fistfight is unlikely to be quiet, but a knife in the back can be...

In SR, as in real life, you do not always get to operate on your own terms. Hand to hand combat is a necessity when range is not an option, whether that's because of extreme CQB, ambush, or simple infiltration. Hand to hand combat is obviously not too useful for a large open battle, but conditions are hardly ever so reliable. Adaptability is life.

Because HtH is popular with adepts, as their type of magic is very werll suited to it, and if you get caught in hand to hand without the skill you're likely to get beat into a grease spot in remarkably short order.

There is either the hand to hand expert, or the people that sooner or later need to not get massacred by him. This means it's always a useful skill to have. As stated above, you cannot always pick your fights.

First of, I never play an awakened character if I have another option. I play mostly sams / faces, and once every few years maybe a decker or the occasional rigger. My characters usually go for pistols / tasers, but I always make sure that I also pick enough melee skillpoints to at least be able to defend myself.

Whenever a melee fighter goes for one of my characters, I first try to shoot him, and that works 95% of the time. But if my opponent survives that, I run, because I wouldn't stand a chance against such opposition anyways. But of course, most of the time you can't run away. At that point all I can do is rely on my teammates' support.

The biggest advantage melee has over ranged combat is that it's much easier to take away your gun than to take away your kung-fu. This however is really only a factor during the occasional prison escape, or similar situations. (Which, now that I think of it, aren't all that uncommon)

And that's basically my experience with melee: The dual-wielding melee adept is like a turtle. It's very easy to pick them off when they're young, but the few who survive have a chance to reach a very old age. Plus, it's kinda scary to have somebody wielding two swords charge you, all the while you blast away at him, and the guy just doesn't drop.

Well, with my combat troll, I invested enough points to have Spurs 7, and he hit for I believe 16S (pair of Dikote Spurs, strength 10). He could use the spurs to penetrate vehicle armour better than his heavy machine gun, and there's something to be said for that.

JaronK

You also don't have to draw and ready or quickdraw your fists. You just step up and start swinging. There are also times when you won't have your weapons (high class bar with weapon scanners, captured and stripped naked, etc.) or where using a firearm would be disadvantageous ("We want the guy alive"). Also, remember you can always make someone spill the beans if they're alive, but dead men tell no tales.

The Abstruse One

That is so true... I'd much rather have somebody "punch the guy in the face" than "blow his hand off" during interrogation.

There's also the issue of spirits and critters. Most of them go at you in hand to hand. Being able to damage them isn't quite so important as not being a greasy smear by the time you're able to do something that could save your hoop.

Melee is when you run outta ammo. Long missions do that to you. If it is a simple break in or datasteal, then you won't have that problem. Heck, for data theft or stealing something, it is best that you do not even get shot at or attacked.

Yeah tottaly for when you run out of ammo fighting of those damn gangers in the redmond barrens.

Or when you want to be a ninja or just cause your a sick puppy and want to look at some ones guts.

Or those drones.... god, those drones....

or those damn bug spirits!!! Break out the butter knife and coat it with Raid and damn, I am all of a sudden super bug killa man with a butter knife

That'd work if, you know, allergies did absolutely anything to make a weapon pierce through protection from normal weapons.

Running out of ammo can be amazingly inconvienent at times.

-Siege

My answer's pretty simple: I use it because it's fun to bash someone's skull in with a tire iron.

You're on my list, buddy.

I figure melee is worth it just for the expressions people get when you pull a battleaxe on them.

Looking through the rules, it seems pretty obvious to me...

HtH lets you have more actions (since every time someone else attacks you, it might as well be an action). Your adept could take out 12 people while the gunslinger is restricted to 3. You can tweak it to get a lot more power a lot more quietly; if you want a concealable, silent weapon, the best you could do is probably an SMG, which doesn't do nearly as much damage as a pair of dikoted spurs. HtH you can also do even when you've been disarmed (as long as its not literally so).

In its niche, HtH is more effective than guns, straight and simple.

Wanna know why HtH is important? You run out of bullets, goon#3 has a gun you can use, and is close enough to be kicked (it happens), a few dice rolls later he's taking a round or 3 to his back from his own weapon. There is a reason why spec. forces are trained in HtH. and it's not just mental discipline and endurance trianing.

The "what if" factor is why all of my characters have some sort of H2H skill. Who knows when you'll reach a situation where all you have is your bare hands? You could be captured and have your stuff confiscated, you could run out of ammo, you could have a weapon jam on a roll of ones, you could be disarmed during a firefight, the attack could come while you're sleeping or at the latrine (where you should have a weapon anyway, but let's not argue semantics ) All in all, follow the Shadowrunner / Boyscout creed: Be Prepared.

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Cannibal to boy scout: Help me out here. It says in the manual that you're supposed to "be prepared", but it doesn't say what spices to use ....

Of course, this is all why my pistol adept usually uses two called shots, elbow for gun hand and opposite knee-cap.

I don't know if I'd qualify any of "Kill Bill" as vaguely real or plausible.

Amusing gore, yes.

-Siege

Come on, nezumi. Seriously, Kill Bill as an example of realism?

It's a classic "goon maneuver" in almost every action movie involving those types of characters. Despite popular disbelief around here Shadowrun was designed very much as a cinematic and action movie-oriented game.

Kill Bill is a completely valid example of the realism within the game world.

Unless, of course, you want to argue how a game with trolls, elves, magic, the wonders of dikote and ruthenium polymers, and the unbelievable speeds a cripple can achieve in melee combat is any more realistic than the movie.

Nothing says loving like a dikoted chainsaw attached to a soupped up heavily armored rotodrone chasing you down an alleyway.

nezumi- there are many different ways people have mentioned about limiting "counterattacks" and Cain once proposed a way that both attacker and defender could take damage. I can't remember anything specific, so some searching is needed.

Since adepts use magic, it doesn't bother me that they can take on a ridiculous number of enemies and have a chance to succeed (infinite counterattacks do bother me though, and everyone gets that).

I remember watching a friend play Fallout 2; I said something like, "You just killed four guys, by shooting them all in the eyes and the few shots that managed to hit you haven't done damage. If I were one of those raiders, I'd be running away."

Same game, different time, I was playing and noticed after killing a few goons with sledge hammer strikes to the groin, that any sane person faced with the bullet proof sledge hammer wielding destroyer of groins would run away. The Crazy 88s were cannon (sword?) fodder not the "realistic" enemies one could fight on a run.

So although it's possible for a melee specialized physad to wipe out a whole gang or squad of guards, after one or two turns, only the stupidest gang/guards would continue.

MT- I think you're right, but that doesn't mean it's the best or only way to do things. I prefer things a little more Splinter Cell and less Counter Strike, but there's a time for and room for both.

The question wasn't why should people use HtH in YOUR game, the question is how do the rules make HtH useful. My answer is perfectly valid : P

True, I suppose, but to build a character around it? I have to admit giggling after shooting someone in the groin in SoF, but doing it serially, that's something beyond me.

Nope, i'm suggesting that in reality that never happens. It's only a broken rule if you deliberately try to break it. In practice it works just fine cause the lone guy will get beat down in fast order by multiple opponents. They have 4x the combat pool and better TN's, even if the skill is equal.

It's kind of like saying that it's a flaw in the game that it doesnt tell you you sufficate if you flap your arms hard enough to fly to the moon. Since you're never going to get to the moon that way the end result is irrelevant. No remotely realistic game scenario has shown that rule to be vroken unless the combatants are absolute morons. Then there are other issues at work.

Uhm, I'd say that when 4 wired guys—who are presumably less skilled but understandably feel their speed and numbers will be enough to overcome a single skilled opponent— get their asses positively handed to them in 3 seconds, there is no idiocy required on the part of the GM. And yet the rules are clearly broken.

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Does that mean it's going to come up often? No. Chances are it will not come up often, if ever, in most games. But rarity of occurence does not make bad rules acceptable.

Let me be clear on this: Yes, the rules is broken, but since the broken rule will pretty much never realistically happen in a game unless the GM specifically sets out to make it happen, then I don't have a problem with a broken rule that will never actually break.

I would say that being able to chuck people into moving cars, the wall, out the window, their friends, a french poodle with an attitude problem, etc, etc more than makes up for any loss in effectiveness.

Besides, cyber-implant weaponry is disgusting. Say you get 2x dikoted hand blades because you're evil and like slicing and dicing. That strength 6 character is getting a 13M physical attack and if you get ambidexterity up high enough you'll get +50% skill dice.

You can't really be disarmed of a CIC by any sane means so you've got a free 13M physical attack for ~0.5 essence and if you get the skill dice bonus, up to 9 dice right out of the gate.

With 9 dice you're bound to get that up to serious or deadly reasonably often.

Combine that with a martial art that teaches herding. You can push them into the wall, probably get -1 superior position and inflict +2TN on them, so its TN3 vs TN6 for everyone but a troll.

You are probably inflicting a 13D attack resisted by the often inferior impact armor. Unless they're a fellow shadowrunner that's probably not going to be be bigger than 3 at the worst so they eat a 10D physical attack.

Of course if you've got ambidexterity 8 you can probably get +50% skill dice anyways if you use a martial art and maybe even the power boost.

9 dice right out of the gate means people get beat up. Get yourself a martial art with whirling and use it like a crack junkie would and you're at +1TN for all attacks you make, deny them their FIM bonus and have a reasonably good shot at murdering.

Get some bone lacing and it gets pretty disgusting. If you go the distance with titanium that's str+4M stun, and if you get the dice + power + have strength 6 you're at 6 + 3 +4 = 13M stun.

13M stun with 9 dice and TN5 isn't terribly bad because unless the opponents have skills of 6 you've got a reasonable shot at doling out pain. Even if they have clubs you can still hit them at least.

Now let's toss in a shock glove. 12M stun (no difference) + 7S shock means if you attack you need to at least equal their successes in order to hit them with a rather disgusting 12M + 7S that can leave them at a +5TN at max (3 wound, 2 disorientation).

Got one opponent? You're at 12M + 7S stun + TN4 + 9 dice = pulpified.

With that bone lacing you can chance that to like, 6M phys and 7S stun.

I'd say melee has a lot of potential. Let's not forget stealth and athletics. You can run and hide then sneak up if need be and surprise them with a big heaping o' hurt.

Oh and about groin shots in FO2: Until you get really high skill levels groin shots are the poor man's headshot. Its a lot easier to hit that location plus it tends to knock people on their asses for obvious reasons.

Once you get to ~121% with a weapon you can hit a guy in the face all you want. Besides, if you shoot them in the nuts and they fall over you get like a three billion percent bonus to hitting them in the eye which have a tendency to cause instant death and all sorts of fun stuff.

You see, the true beauty of that game is the possibility of playing a sexy girl that gets everything she wants through forceful application of a sledgehammer to the groin.