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JTNLANGE
I was wondering about the mana levels. If you take what canon says then each world last about 7500 years, with the peak being about 3500 years in. that means that as the magic level rises and magic becaomes more powerful we get new "things" happening, like shedim and insect spirits and SURGE. if all this stuff is happening now and we are only a few years in what could possible be in store. Now I now that the mana level is along way from hitting peak and that at the rate that game is progressing there is no way we would ever hit that, but it is kinda cool to think about. Also is the metacampaign tied into the rise of mana?


Trevor
TinkerGnome
Horrors. They are what will show up at the peak.

Shedim aren't really a function of the mana level, I don't think. They were just trapped somewhere... else.
Garland
The mana level is actually rising way faster than it should. Supposedly it was "jump-started" by the Great Ghost Dance. Instead of a gradual building of mana we get disasters like Goblinization, SURGE, nuclear meltdowns, volcanic eruptions, etc.

This, of course, implies that certain people/organizations want the mana level elevated faster. Make of that what you will.
Ancient History
The mana level appears to be rising normally, now. The Great Ghost Dance created a "Spike" which would have let them in thousands of years earlier at the exact location of the dance; but it has since been levelled off to more-or-less normal.

As the mana level rises, other planes gain access to the normal one and more stuff appears. THe Shedim may be a fluke caused by the unusual circumstances of Dunkelzahn's death and Ghostwalker's return.

The Horrors have a "window" of opportunity to come through and maintain themselves that's approx. 800 years long; the most powerful require even higher windows and thus have much shorter periods where they can maintain themselves fully ont he physical plane (although they can maintain themselves on the astral plane for a greater period before and afterwards).

Some Horrors only need a certain mana level to enter, not to remain.
JTNLANGE
Yeah that makes sense. Hadn't thought about that. Who would want the mana level to rise faster though. My bet would be the elves. or the dragons maybe. Wasn't it one of the elves who taught Daniel Howling Coyote the GDD. And why is having the mana level rising faster a good thing? I would think that having the horrors back is bad right? I mean didn't Harlequin go to all that trouble not to mention the big D just to make sure that the horrors wouldn't come back any sooner then they had to.


Trevor
Nikoli
The Dragons and the IE's typically don't want these things to return. But who'se to saythere isn't a harbinger of sorts working to speed things along?

Some sort of very low power horror that needs only the mana levels prior to 2011 to maintain a presence. Or maybe it appeared to a willing subject, and is duping them into these actions.
Nath
QUOTE (JTNLANGE @ Jun 15 2004, 04:40 PM)
Who would want the mana level to rise faster though. My bet would be the elves. or the dragons maybe. Wasn't it one of the elves who taught Daniel Howling Coyote the GDD.  And why is having the mana level rising faster a good thing? I would think that having the horrors back is bad right? I mean didn't Harlequin go to all that trouble not to mention the big D just to make sure that the horrors wouldn't come back any sooner then they had to.

A being called Thais taught the Indians the Ghost Dance (the original Dancers of 1890 ; as far as I remember it is not established if the indians keep that knowledge down to Daniel Coleman-Howling Coyote or if Thais, or somebody else, came back to teach it to them again circa 2010). Thais is the son of an elve, Aina Dupree/Sluage and of an Horror. Thais' motivation to speed up the mana rise is clear: after 5120 Thanksgiving in his mother's family, he wants to spend some time with his father's. Any good pedopsychiatrist would tell you that.
TinkerGnome
Who taught the GDD is a mystery. I've heard rumors that it was a certain dwarf with a questionable lineage who has been around a very long time.

One of the theories I initially heard (a very, very long time ago) was that the mana level is tied, somehow, to the amount of life on the planet. I've since come to reconsider that one because of VITAS and the like. Death like that should have slowed the mana growth a bit.

The theory went that the horrors came in when it hit a peak and then killed and rampaged life until there was so little left that they were forced back to their home dimensions. The caers in earthdawn stunted the process because so many metahumans survived the Scourge and left the world stuck in a half-peak state for a while.
shadd4d
But what about someone who wants their full power. If you thin about it, imagine drinking in a child's cup (yes, the one for babies). If you or I know we can chug 1,5 liters of Diet Coke in 1 gulp, but we can't do that with a baby's glass. Hence wanting to increase the levels of mana in order to be able to have access to more.

What about another thought? What if (big assumption here) protection against the horrors also requires a certain level of magic? If that were true, then some might want to speed up the process so they can "secure their personal bomb shelters."

What about the born drakes, Icewing's pet project? If they only emerge during SURGE and such levels, then the dragons might want to have their, in their eyes, only trustworthy and competent servants at their beck and call.

I guess this view is: if magic has brought something good, more of it will bring more goodness. I can see quite a few people taking that view, even if they knew better.

Don
Nikoli
Speaking of ED, where are the rock people in SR? almost evey other playable race is in SR, why not show some love to the rocks?
Siege
Or the t'skrang.

Seriously though, there are various speculations -- the toxic levels somehow killed the rocks, they didn't survive the downtime, the mana levels aren't high enough, etc.

I think ultimately the designers were trying not to import the entire ED line directly into a futuristic setting and leave some things open for possible development later.

-Siege
Garland
I have this theory that races manifest at least partially based on the beliefs that metahumanity holds. An example would be cyclopes-trolls showing up in Greece. When the mana level is high enough, it acts on that sort of cultural belief.

This would explain why the Atlantean Foundation is introducing "Lizardmen" and "Earth Elementals" as player-character races in the Dawn of Atlantis online game (see Target: Matrix). It's an attempt to re-acquaint the population's unconscious with these races.

Of course, this is just my theory. One could easily turn the whole thing around and say it's not belief but memory; cyclopes only show up in Greece and that's just the way it is, and that's why the culture there includes myths of cyclopes.

Edit: As a side note, I'm a much bigger fan of the t'skrang than the obsidimen. The t'skrang are about the best-realized race of lizardmen I've ever seen in an RPG. But then again, I've got a weakness for swashbuckling.
TinkerGnome
Obsidimen might be gone forever unless something changed to the whole Liferock dynamic. No clue, though, since I never played one in ED and can't remember how important the rocks were to their survival.
Ancient History
Small Notes:

Cyclops appear in ED too (admittedly, in LRG's timeline).

There's a possible report of t'skrang in Corporate Download; it was mentioned that Scale was seen in a lizard-man form. Of course, that may just be a function of his age.

Obsidimen are weird...sort of fragmented spirits in bodies made from flesh and elemental earth. The closest approximation I could give is when Zebulon broke up into sub-spirits; with each sub spirit being a distinct spirit that was yet conencted to the others. Even that example is incorrect or insufficient in many respects.

NMath: You should know better than to spread bad rumors! nyahnyah.gif
Garland
Not just cyclops, but ghoul-cyclops! spin.gif
BitBasher
It was officially stated in an interview at a convention some years ago that those races that had not yet appeared were dead forever.
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher)
It was officially stated in an interview at a convention some years ago that those races that had not yet appeared were dead forever.

Yeah well -- it's only official until it happens. grinbig.gif

-Siege
BitBasher
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 15 2004, 05:11 PM)
It was officially stated in an interview at a convention some years ago that those races that had not yet appeared were dead forever.

Yeah well -- it's only official until it happens. grinbig.gif

-Siege

Can't argue with that! biggrin.gif
MrSandman666
What about local mana peaks? could it be possible for a horror to enter the sixth world through a local mana spike of some sort and live there for as long as the peak exists? He would probably be bound to the area of the peak but would it be possible?
TinkerGnome
It depends on the horror.
Garland
If you're the GM, sure it's possible. There are plenty of precendents of "localized magical anomalies."
Dax
QUOTE (Ancient History)


There's a possible report of t'skrang in Corporate Download; it was mentioned that Scale was seen in a lizard-man form. Of course, that may just be a function of his age.

I may be wrong about this AH, but I thought Scale was a Drake. One of the first sightings of a Drake before they became more prevalient. What made me think this was something he said in DoTSW.

The posted who was named Drake made a comment about how the Great Dragons rounding up Drakes was paramount to salvery, and then Scale popped on and made a comment about how it was more an "employment opportunity" than anything else.
LaughingTiger
The Horrors themselves are very vague in defintion. There's no taxonomy, no form or reason to them. They're horrors, the smallers inflict physical pain and destruction, the larger ones feed on emotional pain and anguish. They vary from ungodly thing to ungodly thing.

What we do know:

1. Horrors live in a "part" of the Astral plane, something called the "Netherrealms".
2. Magid needs to be a certain level for some of them to appear here, and that ammount varies from Horror to Horror.
3. Some of them have long term plans that could potentially survive from Scourge to Scourge, the "scourge" being the time when Horrors walk the earth and those no protected die horrible, horrible deaths.

So if you wanted to incorporate a horror into your game, there's plenty of room for you to do so. I think, conversly, the more powerful horrors can manufacture their own level of mana/magical activity and "cross over" before it's supposed to happen, especially now since the 6th world is kinda messed up. Even the pros, the Dragons and IE's, are at a loss to explain somethings. And there's so much they don't want us to know.

What's in store? A gradual increase in magic, till a large portion of the population can innately work magic to some degree. It doesn't translate well into SR rules, but heroes and people in EarthDawn are a form of adept. Then a world-ending catastrophe, wars, volcanoes, earthquakes, the construction of kaers, a time of hiding, and then we start all over again. That is, if the 6th world takes the same route as the 3rd, or 4th.

Really, it's all up in the air.

And there will always, always be T'skrang, somewhere, in some lonely river.

Anybody ever think about using Obsidimen for a horror-atmosphere game? Sent to investigate a mining camp that everyone has lost contact with, after they reportedly struck some unknown type of mineral vien, concentrated in one large clump? Maddened, toxic-corrupted Obsidimen on the rampage...
Nikoli
Or someone summons up an earth elemental, who just happens to not go away and doesn't blindly obey anymore...
JTNLANGE
Having never played ED, at what point in the 4th world does the game happen. Could there be a worse thing than horrors out there that we don't know about. If the end of the magic cycle has things not being able to survive because the mana level is to low maybe at the peak of the cycle there is a world altering "thing" that can survive. Wouldn't be a very long time in the grand scheme maybe just a few years but the culmination of all the mana could bring on a world altering event that prepares the world for the next cycle? Any thoughts.

Also what could the next round of changes be? We had goblinization,SURGE, Magic-users and new breeds of animals, What could be next?


Trevor
Traks
Haven't read that ED that all keep talking about. But, I am interested to show my players a pair of horrors. Does anyone of you fanboys have converted at least one little tiny puny horror? If so, could you post statistics of one or two of them?
Lantzer
Other races:

In any game I run, Tskrang are probably dead. It's hard to see what they might spring from.

Obsidimen are likely viable, but in deep trouble. What are they, after all? Living black stone-like creatures spawned from deposits of probably organic-rich black minerals. You know, like coal, oil shale, and the like.

Most of the Obsidimen have probably been quarried. It doesn't neccesarily mean they have to be all dead. I could see a strip mining operation running into trouble because of 'ecoterrorist' damage. I could see experts brought in to take out the 'toxic earth elemental' which is communicating its disfavor to the miners.
Siege
Well frag, I wanted a pair of t'skrang boots.

-Siege
Lantzer
Well, there's always the Nagahide sofa.
Adarael
QUOTE
But, I am interested to show my players a pair of horrors. Does anyone of you fanboys have conversed at least one little tiny puny horror? If so, could you post statistics of one or two of them?


If by 'conversed' you mean 'gaped in horror', said 'Holy jesus!' and then 'unloaded a whole lotta ammo and spells into it', yeah, we've conversed with one.

I believe my GM converted Chantel's Horror from Earthdawn, but I'm not entirely sure which it was.
Senchae
QUOTE (Dax)
I may be wrong about this AH, but I thought Scale was a Drake. One of the first sightings of a Drake before they became more prevalient. What made me think this was something he said in DoTSW.

The posted who was named Drake made a comment about how the Great Dragons rounding up Drakes was paramount to salvery, and then Scale popped on and made a comment about how it was more an "employment opportunity" than anything else.

I'd thought so too, but I believe it was Synner who posted some time ago that it is never explicitly stated what Scale is. All of the descriptions we get are satisfied by him being a Drake, but also by him being, perhaps, an ally spirit of Lofwyr's.

He's a drake in my game (and is trying to recruit a PC who just expressed unexpectedly as a drake into Lofwyr's service), but in canon I think he's deliberately undefined.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Lantzer)
Well, there's always the Nagahide sofa.

grinbig.gif

Leetle horrors have stats in Harlequin's Back.
Bob the Ninja
Personally I can't wait until the Horrors pop out. last go-around they had to deal with bows and arrows.

Now the 6th world has machine guns and nukes. Say hello to my leetle friend!
Zeel De Mort
Wraiths are horrors are they not?

They're covered in PAoE, and probably in some other book too although it escapes me which one.

Other than those, and anything in Harlequin's back, I can't think where you can find stats for any horrors in SR. I might have a bash at converting one or two from ED into SR stats though, just for amusement.

I wouldn't be surprised if a handful of other horrors show up in SR books eventually, although I wouldn't expect to see anything major.

As for who'd want horrors to show up sooner: I heard a rumour Aztechnology might be quite keen on this happening...
Sahandrian
there was a lengthy thread on the brown forums that had a bunch of horror stats converted (not conversed) to SR3. Of course, I can't find it anymore and never thought to save the thing...
Backgammon
QUOTE (Bob the Ninja)
Personally I can't wait until the Horrors pop out. last go-around they had to deal with bows and arrows.

Now the 6th world has machine guns and nukes. Say hello to my leetle friend!

For a LENGTHY discussion on who would win between Horrows and advanced tech, read this thread.

Ancient History
Wraiths are either minor Horrors or Horror-constructs. Probably the latter.

Dax; Senchae: I too believe Scale is a drake, but a drake form is frankly impossible to be mistaken for a lizard-man form; and the main reason for taking the form of a t'skrang would be to facilitate communication with t'skrang. Or so the almost-logic goes.

[/edit] For those who want to include Horrors in their game, small localized (and very temporary) mana spikes can let them through; and some very insane magicians may actuall be able to summon (though likely not control) them. Only very minor Horrors should be summonable at this stage, with a few exceptions (Ysrthgrathe, for one), more powerful Horrors would be stuck to pureply astral forms. Like Nomads.
Hida Tsuzua
Out of curiosity, is there ever been anything about the pre-Scourge/early 4th world in ED? Was the technology like now? Cavemen? Medieval without guns? With guns?
TinkerGnome
There are plenty of pieces of the pre-scourge world around. Pretty much high fantasy type medieval world as far as I've seen.
LaughingTiger
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua)
Out of curiosity, is there ever been anything about the pre-Scourge/early 4th world in ED? Was the technology like now? Cavemen? Medieval without guns? With guns?

The major difference between what we have now, and what was back then, is that we are based on technology, they were based on magic.

And I mean "we" in a fictional sense, of course.

The World of Earthdawn, the 4th age, is High Magic Fantasy. The game starts mid to late 4th age, but the history goes back to the beginning, and the level of technology stays fairly constant. It's a world that replicates the convience of modern technology with common magic. There are clothes that automatically size to fit you, baths that warm on command, deserts that float to you without a dish, and more available commonly in the game world. The best way to think of it is that the have/had the same "status of living" as the more advanced world, they just had different means of doing it. Technology is what's closing the gap on magic.
In the absence of that powerful force man (and woman) began to apply thought and logic to everyday problems and came up with ways to replicate magic with technology. There's always downtime between magic cycles, which is when we get the idea of cavemen, barbarians, civilizations lost to time, fantastic things that should not be possible that we attribute to legend. It just seems in this current downcycle, mankind made greater strides than before. In all the other ages, technology had apparently never reached the level it has now, for whatever reason. But now magic has come back, and the "modern" man has no use for the force that used to define him. It's an interesting dichotomy, especially, I would imagine, for a Great Dragon just waking and seeing how far we've come.

Addendum: Earthdawn had a form of cannon, a fire cannon that shot ammunition made from a mix of elemental fire and air, or just pure elemental fire. But they never had guns like we do, with chemicals and powders and science.
Phaeton
Saaaaay...I just realized...Think that by the time the Horrors arrive that magic/technology blends will look like something out of Phantasy Star Online? Or will it be more like Half-Life/Doom?

Or both, even better yet? grinbig.gif
LaughingTiger
QUOTE (Phaeton)
Saaaaay...I just realized...Think that by the time the Horrors arrive that magic/technology blends will look like something out of Phantasy Star Online? Or will it be more like Half-Life/Doom?

Or both, even better yet? grinbig.gif

At the risk of being called a heretic for mentioning other games..

I like the way Mage: the Accension looks at magic. It's based on belief. Technology is simply "magic" taking another form, pushing out the old hocus pocus and bringing in the new that's accesible to everyone. No more years of study, no more hours of ritual. You want light? Flick a switch. You want to travel faster than man? Hop in a car.

In my opinion, I see the same thing happening in Shadowrun. I could also see a combination of magic and technology, a synthesis, and that would be really, really interesting.
Ancient History
Magical technique actually advanced during the Scourge from Pre-Scourge times, but several notable techniques have been lost:

--The stone ships of the Scavians that could sail the Death's Sea (think the Black Sea, but made out of lava) as a normal ship goes through water or an airship through air.

--Written Sperethiel was almost completely forgotten, due to lack of writing materials

The T'skrang possessed a sort of techno-magical device, the equivalent of a steam engine that ran on a magical element.
kevyn668
Chantrell's Horror...<shivers>

I'm a charter member of the "Humans Rule!" camp but that one made me (in RL), well, shiver.

[@ toturi: GO HUMANS!!smile.gif]
MrSandman666
Chantrell's Horror? Could somebody enlighten me? indifferent.gif
Ancient History
A Horror that marked, stalks, and mutilates the family of the Human Chantrel. Basically, the Horror can mark anyone (preferrably related by blood) connected to Chantrel...and then it basically vivisects them from the astral plane using it's Astral Slice power. It keeps Chantrel alive so she can go start another family for Chantrel's Horror to destroy and allow the Horror to feed off Chantrel's despair.
toturi
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Chantrell's Horror...<shivers>

I'm a charter member of the "Humans Rule!" camp but that one made me (in RL), well, shiver.

[@ toturi: GO HUMANS!!smile.gif]

Ahem...

GO HUMANS!!
MrSandman666
QUOTE (Ancient History)
A Horror that marked, stalks, and mutilates the family of the Human Chantrel. Basically, the Horror can mark anyone (preferrably related by blood) connected to Chantrel...and then it basically vivisects them from the astral plane using it's Astral Slice power. It keeps Chantrel alive so she can go start another family for Chantrel's Horror to destroy and allow the Horror to feed off Chantrel's despair.

*shiver*

hm, good one. Makes you wonder why he limits himself to just one family. After all, Chantrel might decide not to found another family in order to not feed the horror any more.
Astral Slice, hu? Is this what I think it is? (chopping a body apart from astralspace)

What does the mark look like? Does the marked person know he or she is marked? Does anybody else know?
Ancient History
Some Horrors get fixated on a particular victim, like Ysrthgrathe and Aina.

Yes, Astral Slice is the equivalent of small whirring blades that can afflict victims on the physical plane from the astral.

The test to mark a new victim for vivisection depends on the closeness of the relationship--blood ties are damn near automatic, lovers and spouses are easy, friends and business associates are hard but not impossible.

Just for an example. If Chantrel beds down in a small town for a night after buying a loaf of bread, the Horror could potentially mark and kill the entire town while Chantrel is sleeping (by connecting to the merchant, the merchant's family, their lovers, their friends, the family of the lovers and friends, etc.)

Chantrel's Horror also keeps Chantrel young (although it once let her grow old to trick her into taking a lover), and prevents suicide or murder of it's preferred victim by regenerating her torn flesh (yes, the Horror can make her a new body just like the old one if her old one is too far gone.)

A Horror mark is an astral sign in the victim's aura. You can usually see it on the astral as a black or blank patch.
toturi
You know? After so many years of association, Chantel's Horror should be her best friend. Logically, it should target itself. Evil feeds up on itself.
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