I've been thinking about southern New Mexico in SR, and particularly the parts which have connections to nuclear anything. Now, I happened upon this page in the old forums, where Jon Szeto specifically states:
Full Version: Clarification on Pueblo (or lack of) nukes
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The nuke tests did take place. I spent the past day looking for my sources, but it's buried somewhere. However, if you do a Google search on "Carlsbad Caverns nuclear testing" you'll probably get at least a dozen hits with some meaningful information. |
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1961 -- December 10, Project Gnome, a 5 kiloton nuclear weapon test, detonated underground, 34 miles southeast of the park. (CD: emphasis mine) |
The park encompasses more area than the caves themselves, and frankly, the location of the single test is in the vicinity of where WIPP stands today, in the middle of nowhere on a massive piece of salt, far from the caves themselves (which was the point in putting WIPP there and not closer; to prevent contamination). Furthermore, there was one test. I find this amusing since Mr. Szeto went to the trouble of citing chapter and verse:
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Ahem.
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Emphasis was, of course, his. The other this is that the Caverns aren't in Carlsbad. They are near Carlsbad outside of White's City. How do I know? I've been there.
But, wait! There's more!
The Department of Energy has actually published a list of all of the 1054 detonations of nuclear devices by the U.S. It is entitled, "DOE/NV-209 (Rev. 14), Dec. 1994." FAS--those wacky scientists--have republished it on their website here (PDF; I chose the alphabetical listing). Curiously, there have been three tests in New Mexico: Trinity, in Alamogordo. Gnome, out where WIPP is, and Gasbuggy, a 29 kiloton shaft-detonated device for "Plowshare" purposes deonated near Farmington, NM. For all those who didn't major in Geography, Farmington is in the northwest corner of New Mexico near the Four Corners area. In SR, it is in the Ute Nation. Outside the world of make-believe, it is a city in the Navajo Nation. It's near Chaco Canyon, which is mentioned as being a magical site. But... eh.
I was curious about Alamogordo recently, because it is the site of a possible run involving certain people. And I thought to myself, "Gee, isn't the PCC-Aztlan border awfully far north for Alamogordo to be in PCC?"
And indeed, the border is not perfectly straight longitudinally across from the northernmost point above Roswell, but... We know for a fact that White Sands is in Aztlan because Jon Szeto says so ("The main problem they've had with the Azzies is trespassing, especially around the former missile ranges in White Sands."). However, we also note that White Sands is northwest of Alamogordo, New Mexico. But, there is also the fact that we have these new things called "maps." And with "maps" we can determine where the PCC-Aztlan border is. Given that Trinity is in Aztlan, and that you can see by this map, Alamogordo is southeast of Trinity, then... Alamogordo is in Aztlan.
Now, the naysayer may mention that the reference to Alamogordo I have been pondering is the final shadow comment by a poster in the PCC chapter. Indeed. And like all shadow comments, it could be complete and utter BS. Indeed. However, there is an expectation created here since most of Pueblo isn't large enough to map, that a geographic representation might want to be correct. Rumors of backroom deals and runs may be suspect, but I do not see a reasonable SR gamer being suckered into a position where caveat emptor applies to a simple piece of geographical data.
This might just be me, or it could just be because I can't see White Sands on your map, but I don't see why Alamogordo can't be in Pueblo. I mean, the border is obviously a bit fuzzy in the area, Vegas in the PCC, El Paso in Aztlan, etc.
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 15 2004, 08:12 PM) |
| This might just be me, or it could just be because I can't see White Sands on your map, but I don't see why Alamogordo can't be in Pueblo. I mean, the border is obviously a bit fuzzy in the area, Vegas in the PCC, El Paso in Aztlan, etc. |
Because Ute says Vegas is in Ute.
And because El Paso has been in Aztlan since the first SR map was published.
Trinity is the red star. And Alamogordo is southeast of it.
White Sands is south of Trinity, almost 100 miles directly south of Trinity. Are the missile bases north of there? Anyway, Alamogordo proper is probably a border town.
As for the cavern thing... oh well. Super Secret testing begins after the Test Ban Treaty fails...
As for the cavern thing... oh well. Super Secret testing begins after the Test Ban Treaty fails...
<flip, flip> Hmm. Yes, I misspoke about Vegas. This scale is confusing: It looks like Aztlan has Calsbad and Ute has Las Alamos. But I still don't see how there's a big problem with Trinity and Alamogordo; unless you could point out where White Sands is in relation to everything else.
You can not "super secret" test nuclear weapons. The tremors from a detonation are recorded on seismographs around the world.
| QUOTE (Raskolnikov @ Jun 15 2004, 10:32 PM) |
| You can not "super secret" test nuclear weapons. The tremors from a detonation are recorded on seismographs around the world. |
It was a joke. I know: so funny you forgot to laugh.
| QUOTE (Raskolnikov) |
| You can not "super secret" test nuclear weapons. The tremors from a detonation are recorded on seismographs around the world. |
That's why they do it on the moon
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 15 2004, 08:30 PM) |
| <flip, flip> Hmm. Yes, I misspoke about Vegas. This scale is confusing: It looks like Aztlan has Calsbad and Ute has Las Alamos. But I still don't see how there's a big problem with Trinity and Alamogordo; unless you could point out where White Sands is in relation to everything else. |
Los Alamos is in the heart of Pueblo. Las Vegas, OTOH, is in Ute.
Trinity is in the northern part of White Sands, see. So everything below it, is in Aztlan.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| White Sands is south of Trinity, almost 100 miles directly south of Trinity. Are the missile bases north of there? Anyway, Alamogordo proper is probably a border town. |
Yes, way north. In North Dakota...
There are no missile bases in NM.
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| There are no missile bases in NM. |
No current ones. But then, that's not what they are talking about.
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| Missile Park The WSMR Museum and Missile Park is located 4 miles south of U.S. 70 between Alamogordo and Las Cruces (closer to Las Cruces). The exit is located just at the base of the Organ Mountains on the east side of the mountains. The exit has a sign that reads "White Sands Missile Range" - there is NO special notification for either the Museum or Missile Park. The distances to the exit are: Las Cruces 27 miles, 35 minutes Alamogordo 47 miles, 60 minutes White Sands Nat'l Monument 30 miles, 40 minutes Holoman AFB 40 miles, 50 minutes Coming from Las Cruces, look for the exit on the right side of the freeway approximately 5-8 miles from the Aguirre Spring exit. From Alamogordo or White Sands National Monument, look for the large "White Sands Missile Range" sign as you start to climb uphill at the base of the Organ mountains. Your exit will be on the right, and you will cross underneath the freeway. |
I'm sorry. When I read "missile bases" I actually took it to literally mean the bases where the missiles are kept. Not a two-bit attraction site that sucks.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Yeah, and I meant to say range, not base, but I can see where you'd assume I'd be totally off-topic and pointless rather than just using the wrong terminology.
Still, the only thing that doesn't jive is the Cavern nukes. I don't see that as a big issue. You could even go out on a limb and say that where they detonated the nukes they later discovered a system of caverns that either connects to (or is rumored to connect to) the Carlsbad Caverns. And thus the name was grandfathered in later.
Still, the only thing that doesn't jive is the Cavern nukes. I don't see that as a big issue. You could even go out on a limb and say that where they detonated the nukes they later discovered a system of caverns that either connects to (or is rumored to connect to) the Carlsbad Caverns. And thus the name was grandfathered in later.
I'm sorry I read words literally. It's a bad habit. But who are you trying to kid? Going off -topic is SOP around here. So, it's not a stretch.
There are NO caves. Where Gnome went off is "a 2,000-foot thick salt formation that has been stable for more than 200 million years." (source)
There are NO caves. Where Gnome went off is "a 2,000-foot thick salt formation that has been stable for more than 200 million years." (source)
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| So, it's not a stretch. |
I was saying I could actully see that mistake from my past preformance. I am so off tonight on communitcating I should stop. But first...
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| There are NO caves. Where Gnome went off is "a 2,000-foot thick salt formation that has been stable for more than 200 million years." |
Neat. However, I recall one of the three reasons they would not ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty was in case they wanted to test more nuclear weapons. Let us suppose that they test more weapons, there's an earthquake, it opens a hidden cavern. Also, this is a prettier sight, therefore it must be better. I don't doubt that a more powerful weapon, using technology 45 years more advanced, could produce an effect much different than expected. Or not.
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| The CLUI Land Use Database When detonated, the device, with an explosive yield equivalent to 3,100 tons of TNT, created a cavity 164 feet long and 72 feet high. A stream of radioactive smoke and steam flowed out of the shaft and ventilation lines, and formed a radioactive cloud that traveled northwards (and was detected, by some, as far away as Kansas). Even though workers entered the chamber just a few months after the blast, the cavity remains highly radioactive to this day. The surface of the test site is now used to graze cattle, and the same salt formation is now the location of the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, eight miles north of the site. |
Let's see we have a named cavern system, miles away from the mentioned nuke test site. The nuke left a cavity. The cavity is the cavern system? No, you're wrong. The author was wrong and should have looked at a map.
A statement of fact is not an arguement, I'm amazed how far people will stretch possible interpritations to make the author seem sort-of-if-still-not correct. It's not a big error, at least they didn't write an adventure around it, but seriously, if you're getting paid a few bucks to write something up over the course of a month, perhaps you should check out the facts on your tiny little article. It's not like he had to write a novel.
Twenty-eight pages (including art) does not contain enough information that a little fact-checking could not be done (in a day or two).
I should mention that "a few bucks" is pretty accurate. Freelancers get paid little, and it's not something you could live off of unless you were producing freelance material for multiple companies as fast as you possibly could. Of course then you'd be turning out inferior work, so maybe people who don't have an interest in the artistic or at least recreational aspects shouldn't be producing that material.
I have no idea who the author is, or how much he freelances. I liked most of his work and like I said, the mentioned error isn't terribly large in my opinion. But it is an error and I'm baffled as to why you're trying to maintain that it somehow isn't.
A statement of fact is not an arguement, I'm amazed how far people will stretch possible interpritations to make the author seem sort-of-if-still-not correct. It's not a big error, at least they didn't write an adventure around it, but seriously, if you're getting paid a few bucks to write something up over the course of a month, perhaps you should check out the facts on your tiny little article. It's not like he had to write a novel.
Twenty-eight pages (including art) does not contain enough information that a little fact-checking could not be done (in a day or two).
I should mention that "a few bucks" is pretty accurate. Freelancers get paid little, and it's not something you could live off of unless you were producing freelance material for multiple companies as fast as you possibly could. Of course then you'd be turning out inferior work, so maybe people who don't have an interest in the artistic or at least recreational aspects shouldn't be producing that material.
I have no idea who the author is, or how much he freelances. I liked most of his work and like I said, the mentioned error isn't terribly large in my opinion. But it is an error and I'm baffled as to why you're trying to maintain that it somehow isn't.
I like to fix errors, why is that bad? Now we can either call in an errata and change the mentions of Carlsbad and Carlsbad Caverns to Gnome, which is fine by me. Or we can alter history, which I enjoy doing. I'm baffled at why an attempt at either causes issues in your mind.
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| The nuke left a cavity. The cavity is the cavern system? No, you're wrong. |
Did I say that? No I didn't. I won't bother to repeat myself; obviously if you didn't read it the first time you won't a second.
Aah.. good 'ol Pueblo, blasted by those who don't actually live there.
I'd like to make some clarifications, if I might?
White Sands - The White Sands Missile Range (and military reservation) is one of the largest government facilities in the Old state of New Mexico, extending both north and south of White Sands National Monument (which is normally what shows up on most maps). White Sands is where they shoot large missiles at when they want to test ICBMs and the like. They shoot them from Area 51 (not the alien one, but the Nevada Test Site, Tonapah, NV) and shoot them down in Almagordo.
Trinity Site - due to the fact that the Trinity site is on the actual Army Base that is the White Sands Missile Range, this is not part of White Sands National Monument. Access to Trinity is severley limited by the Military Police, and you can get in some deep drek by sneaking up there.
Carlsbad Caverns - Tourist trap if I ever saw one. Yes, White's City is much closer to the actual hole in the ground than is the City of Carlsbad, but it's comprised of a gas station and a general store, both catering to tourists. Not exactly history. The nuclear test mentioned by Jon is probably historical precedent for continuing into the future.
As for the assertion that there have not been other nuclear tests in the state of New Mexico is a pure fallacy. The state of New Mexico is covered in nuclear test sites, just not major thermonuclear detonations. Albuquerque is host to nuclear tests on Kirtland Air Force Base, and Sandia National Laboratories, Sandia's Coyote Canyon (one of the highest-security areas on the base) is where they've done numerous amounts of explosives testing, and while they're not detonating large nukes, I'm sure there's been a fair hunk of radioactive release up there. Kirltand is also rumored to be one of the largest nuclear stockpiles in the continental United Stares, which is why it was on the top 5 hits for Soviet Nukes in the 80s. Don't even get me started with Los Alamos, which is fabled to be the birthplace of the Atomic Bomb. The canyons around Los Alamos are patrolled by the Los Alamos National Labs protective force (armed to the f*cking teeth, mind you) to keep locals out because there's either radioactive areas, or secret labs (or both, the kooks prefere more secret labs than radioactvity).
So no, by the year 2004, Southeastern New Mexico isn't the nuclear wasteland I made it out to be when I first read SoNA. After doing some further reading, and thinking about my home state, it's just an area where nukes have been and are being tested. I live with this fact and don't doubt that because New Mexico is a bloody wasteland, the government won't start/continue testing in the future.
Besides, this is SCIENCE FANTASY... The Shiwase decision has come and passed in game by now.. and I've never even heard of Shiwase IRL. Life imitates Game, but only in some instances: in this one, it's a willing suspension of disbelief.
--
BaronJ
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Runnin' the Shadows of the Pueblo Corporate Council since 2nd Edition
I'd like to make some clarifications, if I might?
White Sands - The White Sands Missile Range (and military reservation) is one of the largest government facilities in the Old state of New Mexico, extending both north and south of White Sands National Monument (which is normally what shows up on most maps). White Sands is where they shoot large missiles at when they want to test ICBMs and the like. They shoot them from Area 51 (not the alien one, but the Nevada Test Site, Tonapah, NV) and shoot them down in Almagordo.
Trinity Site - due to the fact that the Trinity site is on the actual Army Base that is the White Sands Missile Range, this is not part of White Sands National Monument. Access to Trinity is severley limited by the Military Police, and you can get in some deep drek by sneaking up there.
Carlsbad Caverns - Tourist trap if I ever saw one. Yes, White's City is much closer to the actual hole in the ground than is the City of Carlsbad, but it's comprised of a gas station and a general store, both catering to tourists. Not exactly history. The nuclear test mentioned by Jon is probably historical precedent for continuing into the future.
As for the assertion that there have not been other nuclear tests in the state of New Mexico is a pure fallacy. The state of New Mexico is covered in nuclear test sites, just not major thermonuclear detonations. Albuquerque is host to nuclear tests on Kirtland Air Force Base, and Sandia National Laboratories, Sandia's Coyote Canyon (one of the highest-security areas on the base) is where they've done numerous amounts of explosives testing, and while they're not detonating large nukes, I'm sure there's been a fair hunk of radioactive release up there. Kirltand is also rumored to be one of the largest nuclear stockpiles in the continental United Stares, which is why it was on the top 5 hits for Soviet Nukes in the 80s. Don't even get me started with Los Alamos, which is fabled to be the birthplace of the Atomic Bomb. The canyons around Los Alamos are patrolled by the Los Alamos National Labs protective force (armed to the f*cking teeth, mind you) to keep locals out because there's either radioactive areas, or secret labs (or both, the kooks prefere more secret labs than radioactvity).
So no, by the year 2004, Southeastern New Mexico isn't the nuclear wasteland I made it out to be when I first read SoNA. After doing some further reading, and thinking about my home state, it's just an area where nukes have been and are being tested. I live with this fact and don't doubt that because New Mexico is a bloody wasteland, the government won't start/continue testing in the future.
Besides, this is SCIENCE FANTASY... The Shiwase decision has come and passed in game by now.. and I've never even heard of Shiwase IRL. Life imitates Game, but only in some instances: in this one, it's a willing suspension of disbelief.
--
BaronJ
--
Runnin' the Shadows of the Pueblo Corporate Council since 2nd Edition
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