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Let's say I want to specialize in whacking people with my predator. This goes under clubs, but is it:

a) Clubs (Firearms)
b) Clubs (Pistols)
c) Clubs (Ares Predator)
`d say ares predator.
I'd say just pistols. But that's just because there's only one entry for pistols on the weapons chart (when used as a club, I mean).
I'd say pistols as well. pistol whipping someone with an Ares Pred is gonna be no different then hitting them with a Savalette Guardian.

At least in my eyes
Given the skill structures, I'd second the Clubs (Pistols) approach.

Of course, that's just my read.

QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
I'd say pistols as well. pistol whipping someone with an Ares Pred is gonna be no different then hitting them with a Savalette Guardian.

At least in my eyes

And, likely his.


Clubs (Pistols) sounds about right. The basic configuration is going to be about the same, no matter which type of pistol you're using.
Misfit Toy
By canon, melee weapon skills have to have a specialization in a particular type of weapon as opposed to a specific brand of weapon. Edged Weapons (Swords), Whips (Chains), and Clubs (Maces) are all examples of this. Page 11 of the Cannon Companion has a table listing a few different types of improvised weapons, and amongst them is a Pistols category which designated it as a Club weapon.

So based on that, Clubs (Pistols) is the correct answer. However, if you want to bludgeon someone with the butt of your rifle, you have to use the specialization of (Rifle Stock) for that.
This just begs for a melee adept who is an expert in improvised club weapons.... call him "Ace" which is short for "Ace of Clubs"...
Isn't using a rifle in melee polearms?

I know the book says with a bayonet its Str+2M and reach 2 with polearms being the skill of choice.

I'd call it clubs though because I mean, it just makes sense. Be Reach 1 and Str+1M stun (or whatever a generic club is).

I'd change the defaulting too. +1 for the club and +2 for the bayonet for a related skill (edged weapons or brawling for example) and Probably won't apply anything for defaulting to clubs or polearm if you possess one of those.

I just don't see the point in hurting my player for wanting to use non-lethal methods, and well I guess I can buy the fact that it'd just be a really pointy, really long stick.

I'm not a big fan of shadowrun's weapon classifications.

Shotguns, Rifles, and Assault Rifles are all fired the same exact way. There is no difference that familiarity with the weapon itself cannot fix.

Trying to claim this makes sense is about as intelligent as making Hold Out, Light, Machine, and Heavy pistols all different skills.

A shotgun is just a bigger rifle. Its got meaner kickback, but its otherwise the same. All you need to do is fire the weapon and get used to how it handles and you're all set. Any training in rifles is the same you'd find if you fired a shotgun. Same goes for assault rifles. Recoil is the only thing most single action rifles don't deal with, but that's not justification for a skill. CERTAINLY not for a rating 4+ because now you're a professional or better.

I can sorta see why this is because shotguns, rifles, and assault rifles as one skill doesn't really work but it sure as hell doesn't make MORE sense breaking it up.

That is of course unless shotguns have somehow mutated by the 2060's and I highly doubt that's the case.

Any thoughts on how to alleviate this problem?

I know this is off topic and I apologize. I also know it was sorta discussed a few days ago in a different topic but well...dammit this needs fixicating. frown.gif
Someone suggested dividing firearms into Short Arms (Pistols, SMGs), Medium Arms (The rifle family) and Heavy Weapons (What they are now).

Makes sense to me.
Yeah, I think that's from the topic from a few days ago. Short Arms, Long Arms, and Heavy Weapons I think it was.

Then melee came along and made a mess of things as melee is wont to do. frown.gif
I just reduce the defaulting penalty to +1.
Possibly the best modification would be similar to what Cain suggests with a limited skill web with +1 and +2 defaulting TN penalties. So rifles and assault rifles might be +1 but rifles and pistols might be +2. Without the whole defaulting to a completely unrelated skill sillyness from 2nd edition.
[edit: gah, forgot to finish my post. Stupid furry four-legged distractions. nyahnyah.gif]

Yeah, I was thinking of something similar to that as well.

+1TN isn't serious, and I'd allow full combat pool and all that fun stuff. Just call it an "unfamiliarity" mod. Still kinda crappy but a decent workaround. Probably something that I would get rid of if they use the weapon enough times.

Not like a shotgun/rifle/assault rifle is something you'd want to use around town.

At best a shotgun is 6 conceal with say a franchi spas, folded stock, barrel reduction or the somewhat gimped Defiance T-250. (Why it loses a whole DAMAGE LEVEL from a BARREL REDUCTION is jackass to the max, but foolish people wrote most of these firearm rules so I guess its logical....Oh well. Yay for house rules.)

Conceal 9 under a longcoat of some sort isn't terrible I guess, but the noise you make certainly is.

Since I'm new I don't know if its a big factor. I like capsule rounds and I want to use them in shotguns for a REALLY CHEAP 8S stun attack. At 10 nuyen/10 rounds that's a buck apiece, and since all you lose is knockdown its a bargain.

Plus you can always put in pepper punch and get a really effective, non-lethal defense.

Plus a targetted shot with that SL2 is only TN4 and a free 8D stun. TN5 if you default, and since all you need a single hit, that's not too shabby.

What say the vets? 9 conceal boomstick or 13 conceal heavy pistol (morrisey Elite)?

Walking around town that's not really going to matter, and definitely not on a B&E run.

Additionally you can mount a bayonet. Dikote that sucker and its a Str+3S if attached underbarrel. Cutting the barrel will probably reduce the reach to 1, but a quick, efficient lethal means of dealing with problems would be useful.

unattached the bayonet is a standard knife, which is conceal 8 and StrL, so dikoted its Str+1M.

Doesn't seem too bad, especially since that's a SA/BF shotgun.
Isn't using a rifle in melee polearms?

I know the book says with a bayonet its Str+2M and reach 2 with polearms being the skill of choice.

If you attach a bayonet, yes it's polearms.

But if you just whack someone with the rifle butt, the chart on page 11 CC says it's (Str+2)M Stun and you use the Clubs skill.

Clubs is by far my favorite melee skill. Edged weapons requires something be kind of sharp, polearms requires it be big. Clubs? Any blunt object that happens to be lying around will do as long as you smack them with it without throwing it and you can talk your GM into not calling it a polearm. A brick, a baseball bat, a table leg, a pistol, a rifle butt...The list goes on. Throwing Weapons is similarily uber because literally anything becomes a weapon in your hand, regardless of how many sharp edges it has or how big it is.
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