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cheezypoof714
I could have swore I saw something that covered ambidextrous characters.Now I can't find it anywhere and wondering if I just dreamed it up.
Is it an edge?If so what would the value be?Also SR3(pg.112) Using a Second Firearm states that any target number reductions from smartlinks are negated.Would this still hold true to ambidextrous characters?I am guessing so.,but had a few ideas that might work below.

Having 2 smartgun links implanted and independent cybereyes to get the TN modifier.OR one Smartgun Link 2 and two induction pads.Would either of these methods work or is there one that I haven't listed?Any thoughts are appreciated.
Nath
QUOTE (cheezypoof714)
I could have swore I saw something that covered ambidextrous characters.Now I can't find it anywhere and wondering if I just dreamed it up.

Cannon Companion pages 94 and 95.
cheezypoof714
Thanks.I don't own the book,but I have read it.That explains the not being able to find it.
Apathy
Even with ambidexterity you still can't use two smartlinks or two laser sights simultaneously. You just get to negate the second weapon penalties.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (cheezyproof714)
Having 2 smartgun links implanted and independent cybereyes to get the TN modifier.OR one Smartgun Link 2 and two induction pads.Would either of these methods work or is there one that I haven't listed?Any thoughts are appreciated.


Officially, the reason for not being able to use the Smartlink bonus is that it's useless when you can't tell easily which spot is for which hand.

Frequent houserules are that if you buy a second induction pad and processor (see M&M for info on smartlink subsystems), you can get each hand assigned a different color or a different symbol to distinguish them, and then use the -2 bonuses on both hands. For the sake of balance, I advise against that rule, but it's a possibility.
Cain
I allow it, but it only negates the second weapon penalties. If you add in the ambidexterity rules, then there's still more penalties to deal with.
JaronK
This never seemed quite clear in the book, but when firing two weapons, do you fire them both at once, so you could fire two pistols as a single simple action?

JaronK
Arethusa
Yes. One Simple Action can disharge both weapons.
KillaJ
Correct. The rule is on page 106 of SR3.

Edit- Too slow
Misfit Toy
[Simultaneous posts blow.]
KillaJ
Its like quickdraw for nerds. smile.gif
Luke Hardison
The biggest advantage (by canon) to getting the dual-palmpad setup when going akimbo pistols (as an ambidexterious character) is that you can still change fire mode and eject clips as a free action. I would typically allow them both to be changed / ejected as one action. Plus you could go to one pistol, and either one, for more difficult shots.
Cain
Actually, by canon, there's another advantage-- it's a free action to switch between active guns. So you could carry a heavy pistol in one hand, and a burst-fire shotgun in the other. If you load the shotgun with shot, then you can switch from accurate single shots to brutal area-suppresion at will.
Plastic Rat
What about the mage spell improve aim, and I think there's adept powers that help for guns too. Do they count?
Dashifen
The spell is Enhance Aim but it's a little weird. By canon, the target resists your spell to target him/her every time you shoot, IIRC.
Misfit Toy
It also has a very limited range of (Magic) meters. But otherwise it works when firing two guns.
Nikoli
Aparantly the designers forgot that our eyes can distinguish different colors. So, the smartlink design doesn't allow for multiple weapon useage, I personally agree with the more essence option of adding another pad and another processor.

Again, I still allow vision mag and smartlink to stack.
Misfit Toy
It has nothing to do with being able to create two distinct reticles. It has everything to do with the fact that the human brain and eyes can't stay focused on two things at once despite one's whiz abilties to play a video game with perfect focus across the screen.

Sure, if you aim both at the same target you'll be able to see 'em with perfect clarity. The problem is getting both of them lined up exactly right, while keeping track of which is which, and making sure you adjust the right weapon. Unfortunately, that takes a lot longer than it takes to aim just one firearm, especially in a high-stress situation, so the point is rather moot in a standard Combat Turn.
Zeel De Mort
By canon neither smartlinks nor laser sights give you a bonus when firing two weapons at the same time, but I'd say if you were firing both at the same target you should at least get some benefit then. Maybe add up the modifiers (e.g. -4 for two smartlinks) and divide by two, then spread that over both weapons. So at best you'd get -1 on each, or perhaps just -1 on one and not on the other, depending what hardware you had.

Otherwise, your best option is to have an aptitude in whatever weapon you're planning to dual wield. Full ambidexterity and and an aptitude in pistols would still give you a base target number of 3 for both weapons for example.
Cain
QUOTE
What about the mage spell improve aim, and I think there's adept powers that help for guns too. Do they count?

Enhance aim does indeed do the trick, but is restricted in range. Adept powers only add dice, they don't reduce TNs like that.
Shockwave_IIc
By Canon i find that it's not really worth going for two pistols at the same time baring the FA Light pistols and area supression but that is a completely different thing.

My house rule is that you can gain LAser sight/ Smart link bonus's but Only if both weapons are being fired at the same target, otherwise wellcome to the world of (oh? in that case i just fire one of them...)
JaronK
Well, it's certainly possible to go insane and stay cannon with two pistols. With aptitude: pistols, and ambidexterity, you can fire off 4 base 9M shots, killing four people in a round, without terrible numbers, which most other folks can't do without AoE hits. Now, with custom guns, you could be using burst fire without recoil, doing 12S damage with each of four bursts. Ow.

JaronK
Misfit Toy
Without terrible numbers? By the time you hit the fourth target, you're at a +6 TN penalty.
Arethusa
Not to mention that a GM who allows Aptitude:Pistols deserves to be forcibly sodomized on hourly shifts.
Zeel De Mort
Well yes, the target number still wouldn't be pretty, and a lot of GMs seem to have something against allowing aptitudes for most/any common combat-related skills, I wonder why..

I guess if you were a real hardcore pistols akimbo killer you'd be a physad too and could at least center a few of those pluses away. It'd give you half a chance of taking out four guys a pass if your skill was ridiculous enough.
tisoz
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort @ Jun 25 2004, 12:54 PM)
By canon neither smartlinks nor laser sights give you a bonus when firing two weapons at the same time, but I'd say if you were firing both at the same target you should at least get some benefit then.  Maybe add up the modifiers (e.g. -4 for two smartlinks) and divide by two, then spread that over both weapons.  So at best you'd get -1 on each, or perhaps just -1 on one and not on the other, depending what hardware you had.

You could achieve somthing like that by using a free action to deactivate one smartlink. The remaining smlk bonus applies in full.Shoot the non-smlk pistol first at no modifier, take the recoil modifier and the smlk bonus on the second shot from the smlk equipped gun.
QUOTE
Not to mention that a GM who allows Aptitude:Pistols deserves to be forcibly sodomized on hourly shifts.

I have let characters have aptitude pistols when they don't want to take any cyberware. Using 4BP for the edge seems balanced. If they put those 4BP + 1 more into resources, they can afford any smartlink plus a whole lot more. Plus the smlk bonus will apply to a lot more than only pistols, like any smlk equipped weapon.
Zeel De Mort
Umm.. Would you be any better off having a pistol in each hand and firing them once each than you would be having one and firing it twice? I'm a bit confused, although I agree with most of your posts so you're probably making some sense there somewhere. smile.gif

Yeah aptitudes should be dished out plentifully to any characters who want them if they don't have smartlinks/centering/etc. For other people.. They should perhaps make some aptitudes worth more points than others. I mean a mage would get infinately more use out of an aptitude in sorcery than, say, a guy who had an aptitude in cars (which would still be handy).

Things like sorcery, computers, possibly most martial arts and firearms skills, should perhaps carry a higher cost, with others like athletics, car, etc being the normal 4 points, and some even being worth a bit less than that.
tisoz
QUOTE
Umm.. Would you be any better off having a pistol in each hand and firing them once each than you would be having one and firing it twice?

Just trying to point out a legal way of doing what he was trying to do. (Same overall modifiers and penalties.)

It could help with SS weapons. Let's you get 2 shots off from a pair of Ruger Super Warhawks as a simple action. Maybe when changing clips of different ammo. (For example, they start with gel rounds in one and ExEx in the other. The gel isn't working, they start firing ExEx, use smlk to hasten changing the gel round clip out.) Might aim for a simple action, fire one with aim bonus, fire other with smlk bonus.(?) But you're right, most cases you may as well use 1 gun and fire twice.

QUOTE
although I agree with most of your posts so you're probably making some sense there somewhere. smile.gif

I should frame this. smile.gif I thought everyone pretty much disagreed with everything I said. Next time, say so, morale support. smile.gif

QUOTE
Things like sorcery, computers, possibly most martial arts and firearms skills, should perhaps carry a higher cost, with others like athletics, car, etc being the normal 4 points, and some even being worth a bit less than that.

There are so many firearms though that an aptitude in one isn't as bad as an aptitude in something like Computer that a character uses for ablout all matrix tests. I haven't approved Aptitude Pistols for anyone except the no smlk guy, but the more I think about it... Problem is, usually the character only has the one gun skill, so it becomes like the Computer example; they use it all the time.
Zeel De Mort
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE
although I agree with most of your posts so you're probably making some sense there somewhere. smile.gif

I should frame this. smile.gif I thought everyone pretty much disagreed with everything I said. Next time, say so, morale support. smile.gif

Well, it was just over the last couple of days actually. It was probably just a fluke, I wouldn't take it too seriously. wink.gif

Good point about SS firearms, it would help with those at least, although personally I'm not a fan of them.
Cain
QUOTE
Umm.. Would you be any better off having a pistol in each hand and firing them once each than you would be having one and firing it twice?


Using a second firearm allows you to switch out between different ammo types quite readily. For example, you can carry a pistol packing APDS or EX for point-shooting, and a scattergun in the other hand for area supression. If they're both burst fire, it's even nastier-- burst EX can penetrate most hardened armor, and BF Shot can clear an area in a hurry.
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