It's really pretty clear that bows and crossbows are far from believably implemented in SR (20S shots from bows, strength based ranges on crossbows, etc). I know of one topic on the subject, but it got derailed in record time (why, I even helped). Have there been any attempts at making bows and crossbows more believable? If not, any suggestions?

Actually, these problems are pretty easily solved with a little common sense. Base ranges on the STR min of the weapon, not the actual STR of the character; don't allow ridiculously high STR min weapons. (Who's making these things? Last time I checked, "ridiculously strong mutant cyber-trolls" was not a viable market segment.)

We here at Freak and Strong are committed to providing a level of excellence that other retailers simply CANNOT compete with. Take this bow, for example...

Don't they do Strength Minimum damage? And need Str Min. Str. to use use?

Cap Strength Minimum or add anything over (X)Strength Minimum to Availability and a fraction of it to SI. Example, anything over Strength Minimum 6 adds to availability and 1/4 of the amount over the Strength minimum adds to SI.

those are reasons why i always take B/R skills matching my weapons "Buy it?! I made it!"

How about varying availability by STR min? For example, you could use the base availability of 3 for bows with a STR min of 1-3, and then increase the availability by 1 for every point above 3?

This doesnt strike me so much as a failure in regards to the rules for bows so much as a general problem with the availability rules. Another good example of this would be magical gear - does anyone else find it more than a little ridiculous that it is just as easy to find a force 10 focus as a force 1 focus of the same type on the street, or that force 8 sustaining foci are easier to find than force 3 spells?

That's not a problem with the Availability rules. That's a problem with the Availaibility listing for foci.

I would say that assigned availability values are, indeed, a portion of the availablity rules. Thus, any problems with canon availabilities are, in fact, problems with availability rules in general.

Note that I did not mention that I had a problem with availability *mechanics* - another subset of the availability rules. Some people do. But what good are a passable set of rules if the implementation is screwy? There are all sorts of weird decisions that are behind various availabilities (another commonly cited example being the Strato-9) that cripple the rationality of the availability system as a whole as it currently exists in canon.

Just because a few entries are illogical or outright weird, that doesn't make the rules they refer to a problem, only the entry itself.

Availability is a pretty consistant set of rules throughout the game. Unlike, say, Concealability, most of it makes sense as long as you keep it in context of acquisition of items on the streets. They tend to break down when dealing with legal acquisition of items, but for shadowrunners, they work fairly well. Of all the rules in the game, however, the Availability ones are not too messed up.

There are a few strange listings, yes, but overall the rules -- the mechanics -- are both simple and elegant in their believability.

FRSMCTBRSMCT would need a pretty broad chest to put it on anyway.

Can you think of an example from RL where a larger item containing a small arm is easier to get a hold of than the small arm it contains, though? For example, if a HMMWV with an M2 was more "available" than just an M2, that might make sense. But IRL, getting the gun is a whole lot easier than the vehicle + gun.

Bows being able to knock out armored vehicles is implausible. Fortunately, because there are no Armor Piercing arrows or bolts, even a STR 20 Ranger-X Bow won't penetrate significantly more than a HMG with APDS ammunition. However, a bow capable of punching through 2" of RHA at a few hundred meters doesn't sound really likely -- not unless it is, indeed, at least the size of a large ballista. Even then the only way to get that kind of performance is to use massive arrows weighing dozens of kilograms, because you just can't get that much velocity out of a bow mechanism.

I can't help but picture a ridiculously strong mutant cyber troll using a "bow" made out of the spring from a truck suspension with a steel cable attached to both ends.

AE:

There may not be any armor-piercing arrows (or crossbow bolts), but what (except a determined GM, that is ) is going to stop a PC with the Archery skill, training in the use of a Ranger X-bow or heavy crossbow, and a high Demolitions skill from pulling a John Rambo (please excuse the movie reference, but sometimes pop culture analogies are the only way I can make myself clear ), and making his/her own high-explosive arrowheads using Composition 12 and an impact-sensitive detonator?

I've never been in the service (and any vets posting here feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken-- but please, no flames! Just polite criticism, thank you.), but it's my understanding that anyone with the right demolitions training can make a shaped- or hollow-charge explosive device using plastique and some sort of cone-shaped form.

I would think that the same technique could be applied, in miniature, to a high-explosive arrowhead powerful enough to at least damage light armored vehicles--after all, the various world military agencies have had hollow-charge rifle grenades since World War II (sort of--the original 2.36" Bazooka shell was originally conceived as a rocket-assisted rifle grenade, until it was tested and the Ordnance folks realized that the backblast would be *LETHAL* to the firer if used in that fashion).

And if the PC were a Mage or Adept of the Magician's Way, and wanted to get *REALLY* nasty (personally, I prefer to think of it as "innovative"), he or she could put a "Silence" or "Darkness" (or worse, BOTH ) spell on the arrow. That would be interesting, wouldn't it? The target gets blown to bits (or at least damaged) and no one else sees or hears a thing.

Just some food for thought.

--Foreigner

I've actually got a ballista made out of an old Jeep spring. Or used to have, anyway... it pulled itself apart after a few uses, and is currently in pieces in my parents' garage because I've been too lazy to rebuild it (next time, I use bolts to hold it together). It could get some pretty good range out of a broomstick. I never actually tested the draw weight on the thing, but I don't think it was more than a couple hundred pounds... I could pull it back to full draw by grabbing one end of the spring in each hand, bracing my feet against the center of the bow, and pushing with my legs. But it was just the primary spring... secondaries weren't attached. I've got them kicking around somewhere, too, but I never figured out how to attach them effectively.