Well...?

Of course not, especially those who turned into elves.
Besides even those immortal elves are just long living, I suspect and they can be easily gunned down. Of course first you must get through their 5000 Karma Pool points.

No one turns into an elf. You're either born one or you're not. Well, unless you undergo gene therapy, but even then its superficial. If I see one more lame character concept with a goblinized elf or dwarf, I'm going to go psycho with my wiffleball bat.

Elves are simply very longed lived, with earlier editions estimating something like 300-500 years or so (I can't remember the exact number). Those who are immortal were part of some dragon hijinks in the Second and Forth Worlds or are the offspring of one (like Frosty) in the Sixth World.

Didn't people turn into elves, like into other species (orks and trolls and other teddy bears?) Of course I am not sure about my memory.

No. Golinization and UGE are two completely seperate phenomena. Even SURGE doesn't allow for it.

Well since no elf has died of old age yet. They would most certainly seem like they live forever.

Feh, they ain't dead till you take the head.

Now, if the head looks up at you and asks why you did that, they're immortal.

And you are so, so screwed.

-Siege

Shadowtech had taht nice ST on the genetic specifics of elves. It said there, that elves have special genes which basically switch off aging at a age of 20 or something like that and that certain scientists claim that some mechanism exists which reactivates the aging process at sme later point. But as one of the shadowtalkers points out, that reactivation mechanism had not been found yet, so elves seem indeed to be "relatively immortal" (a term taken from a german SF-series which refers to being immune to aging).

IIRC The immortal elves, like Harlequin are the result of magical mating between elves and Dragons. The great dragons wanted servants who were as long lived as the Dragons themselves to handle their plans, instead of having to retrain new servants from scratch every few decades.

I'm not saying a damn thing.

So to sum up... All elves born during spikes in the manna, during UGE, and since the Awakening will all age and die. They'll just take their time about it. On the other hand you have the truly immortal elves who live thousands of years at least.

Correct or not?

Thanos

The vast, vast majority, yes. There are exceptions such as Frosty (Harlequinn's apprentice and Ehran's daughter).

My read-through of the Tir Tairngire sourcebook and all the wonderful shadowtalk in that gave me the impression that medical science points to about a 400-500 year lifespan for normal elves, though that research has already been tainted by political disinformation at least once. Also, some things were said about the section of the chromosome that turns off aging being affected by mana levels. That says to me that as the mana level of the Sixth world increases, there's the possibility of all elves being immortal, especially in magical hot spots.

And if I'm blatantly wrong, it's something Ancient History could have prevented

Just out of curiosity, do people use "elven immortality" conspiracy paranoia in their games? I remember I hit it hard for a while, around the time Tir Tairngire came out, then my players tired of it after a while and it kind of dropped by the wayside. Still, though, no one really knows how long elves live (for sure). Does anybody still use elven paranoid conspiracy fever?

Nope. Didn't care for it then, don't care for it now.

Coming from a gaming group set in 2051 that doesn't have any elves in it and just got its grubby little hands on the Tir Tairngire sourcebook, I think our characters are probably about to get into Elven conspiracy theories (our characters also don't get out much). Then again, I suppose our characters don't have access to the Tir Tairngire piece on shadowland yet by canon, so we'll have to all sit down and see if it's something we want to fudge the timeline on.

AH won't say it, I will. He has a whole page dedicated to IEs in general. Immortal Elves are a specific breed of elf who pass on their gene to their children (though not always). The speculation is (not set in stone, but most likely true) that the IEs were formed either by a dragon mating with an elf or a dragon ritual to create long-living servents (prior to them using drakes). The elves rebelled against the one that did this the most (Alamais(e)), scarring him. The elves, however, either don't remember their history or just don't talk about it.

The elf lifespan has been esteemated at approx. 500-1000 years, but since there aren't any 500-1000 year old elves running around (at least none that will admit to it), it's hard to be sure. Same with dwarves, who are esteemated to live 150 years or so. They are not immune to disease, age, etc. like IEs are. Their physical aging just slows to a crawl at about the mid-20s or so. That's why Elhron, etc. look odd to people who pay attention as they're elves that appear as though they're in their 30s or 40s.

BTW, spike baby elves and IEs during the downcycle appeared as regular humans (from Worlds Without End (I think, the Aina novel in SR)). Food for thought.

Also, hardly any of this is my own deductions and credit goes to AH for doing it first. Go read his page and learn, my friends. I'm just trying to be a good student.

The Abstruse One

Yeah, typo fixed.

The Abstruse One

Give the poor guy a break. I mean the dude's had to answer this same question about 15,000 times (including once when I asked it back on the old boards). Just because he's our omniscient Shadowrun and Earthdawn metaplot master doesn't mean he doesn't still get annoyed.

The Abstruse One

Tired, actually. I never did understand how the whole Spike Baby = IE rumor came up, and have tried to squish it good. Then it comes back like cancer.

Lifespans for elves are typically 400-500 years without life-extending magic being used, disease, violence, etc. There are records of elves reaching 800, but these are fairly rare. Blood elves had somewhat extended lifespans, perhaps another century or two.

The Downcycle and Ears: This is a weird subject. Only the novels address it at all. Caroline Spector thinks that IEs take on a more human appearence, including rounded ears. Lisa Smedman thinks Spike Babies have pointed ears, which some chose to bob with surgery. Carl Sargent/Marc Gasciogne claim Leonardo da Vinci was an elf and had pointed ears; Steven Kenson implies Leo the IE was NOT da Vinci.

Safest bet? At least Spike Babies have pointed ears. Why? Because the Xavier Foundation had to have some way of recognizing and collecting 'em.

The foundation uses Cerebro, of course.

~J

Actually they did. More than once. Yeah, I'm just being an ass.

Spike Babies != IEs. However, Dodger's conversation with Kham in Never Trust an Elf implies in a few spots that he MIGHT be an IE. Can't think of any specific quotes right now, but he's trying to not let the entire cat out of the bag with Kham's questions.

The Abstruse One

One word that'll give you a bit to think about if that's true..."Damon"

The Abstruse One

That would sort of make the term immortal elves redundant wouldnt it?

No more redundant than people talking about "cute little kittens"

I rather enjoy vicious cute little kittens of doom. You know the ones that suck the soul out of children as they sleep.

Actually, its the kittens that protect the sleeping children from just that fate.

Says the kitten propaganda machine!

i'd rather damon knight remain human. him being an IE would be pat, played out, and wholly unimaginative. woo, another powerful semi-public figure with a mysterious past who turns out to be an IE.

if the 'damon' comment above was referring to something else, ignore this comment.

Hmmm. I guess I misread the title of this thread.

I thought it was "Are all Elves immoral?"

If the Denairastas were immortal, Uhl would look a whole hell of a lot better than he does for his age. <tsks>