Towards the end of the description of this power in MiTS, it states that adepts gain a +2 charisma for attacks on astral objects. Now, its possible Ive overlooked something obvious, in which case Im sure the power is fine like that. However...

As far as I can tell, adepts *CANNOT* use astral projection, ever. (Well, a metaplanes quest or a dragon or something could use it on them, but you know what I mean.) So they would always be dual-natured, meaning they would use strength for all attacks on astral objects... Which also means they would never use charisma.

So my question: What does that text imply?

It could be a hold over from a previous edition, I dont have any previous material to go check against. It could mean that they gain +2 strength for such attacks, and the writer just wrote charisma because thats synonymous with astral strength. It could be totally useless, because adpets will never use thier charisma in such a way. It could mean they gain +2 strength for all attempts to use this power, tho given the context that seems unlikley.

My personal gut feeling is that this is intended to allow them to break physical objects as the power describes, and give them a bonus to break astral objects in the form of +2 strength for the opposed rolls such attacks involve. But Im interested to see what everyone else thinks, and see if theres a correction needed.

I am way out of my league here, but can't adepts initiate too ? I thought they could astral quest for initiation, but were restricted to their totem's home plane.

Or is that what you were referring to when you say "a metaplanes quest" ?

--Dave

I dunno wtf youre talking about. Adpets can initiate, they cannot use any ordeal that they would be unable to fulfill, just like any other mage. Shamans (which are not adepts) have a totem, and work as you describe. The metaplanes quest was a reference to adventures like "harliquins back" and others, where the entier party is sent on an astral quest via a 3rd party.

White Dwarf, it appears to me that you've found a bug in the wording of the rules, as you suggest, and your interpretation is the desired meaning. I suggest you send this to Rob Boyle at
info at shadowrunrpg dot com
as a suggested correction to the next printing of MITS.

SR3 p. 176, "Astral Objects."

They have their own special rules. Dual-beings do not get to use Strength when attacking one. It's a specific contest of Charisma vs. Force. It's not a conventional attack and neither Combat Pool nor Astral Combat Pool apply; only Karma Pool can be used (and probably an initiate's Astral Pool). In fact, you don't even use a Combat Skill when attacking one. It's closer to Banishing or Dispelling.

Smashing Blow is only useful for attacking Astral Objects, hence the rule and hence the bonus. It's not a bug. And yes, an elf will likely be more effective at using Smashing Blow than a troll would. Sometimes it sucks to be a character with a low self-esteem.

Lose the attitude please. Your interpretation of the rules is correct, just as mine was. But that interpretation brings up another question. They indicate an opposed test using charisma vs force, basically.

However, the first paragraph (under astral objects) pertains to an astral object being attacked via astral combat. As dual beings (adepts using astral perception power, theres no other way they could interact with the objects) adepts use strength when engaging in astral combat, not charisma. This is seen in the box at the top of the same page, and in the relevent section. It even goes so far as to specify them only being affected by physical damage.

Now, the rest of the section goes on about the specific/unique rules for that game operation. Why the first paragraph then.

Which leads me to believe that if youre right about adding to the charisma for the opposed test, but that the astral objects section has some extraneous text. Because the whole reference to astral combat, physical damage, etc is completley meaningless in light of the rules that follow it.

Its got to be one way or the other, someone should edit this stuff...

You're the only one with the attitude here.

Astral combat is engaged in any time you fight something on the astral plane. Dual-beings engage in it just as much as a projecting mage does. When attacking an astral object, you use these special rules due to the nature of astral objects. Likewise, Smashing Blow is completely accurate and correct in the rules they give.

You're the one making erroneous assumptions left and right, and its only those assumptions of yours that are in conflict with anything else in the rules. You were wrong. You didn't find a bug. You didn't find a loophole. You didn't find an error. Accept it and move on instead of paranoidly whining about people having attitude.

<shrugs> If you're going to be accused of having one despite only trying to help earlier, you might as well live up to it. Or should I just have followed his lead in other threads and started my reply off with "Enough" because I didn't like what he had to say?

Misfit toy, lose the attitude please. I never made any claims; the original question was a "what" question, not a yes or no. The only claim made was that the first paragraph in the astral objects section didnt comform to the rest of the section. Any other claims were made by other posters. And do not imply or infer anything about my other posts unless you quote or cite the area in question, and do not pretend to know my motives for the post.

Thescamp, I understand that. But that doesnt change the fact that first paragraph of the section is completley pointless given the rest of the section.

The question on the adept power has been resolved.

ironically, the statement that provoked white dwarf's attitude comment was one of the least provocative troy's ever made, in any of his various guises. an adage that might apply here would probably talk about what happens when you go looking for trouble.

i don't have my books on me. someone clarify whether smashing blow takes up an action--eg, can i use it at the same time as the Focus Will manuever? or am i confusing the rules for attacking a manifested spirit with willpower with the astral combat vs. astral objects rules?

Copy my style if you wish, but that is not it. Again you claim that I started it with "enough" because I didnt like what was said. Untrue. It was because I tired of the repeated back and forth where each post said the same thing over and over. Kind of like this thread...

I made no attacks. I asked you to lose the attitude, which you obviously have not. Nothing in my posts here, nor the one you refer to above, was a statement about anyone, or any form of personal attack.

You, however, do so freqently. Shape up, or have the mod's ship you out. This isnt the first time youve blatently insulted other posters, follow the rules or leave.

Is anyone else here confused about what part of Misfit Toy's original post indicated a bad attitude? I've read it like 20 times now, and I can't figure it out. I don't really care about either of your arguments one way or another, but its driving me nuts trying to figure out what set it off. I can clearly see the sarcasm and attitude in the ensuing posts, so I know im not completely dense. I'm not kidding, somebody help me out, this is going to bother me.

There wasn't any. Dwarf is likely extra-sensitive due to previous altercations with Misfit.

I'm at a complete loss myself which is probably why I got torqued off. I'm also unaware of any "previous altercations" with him other than noticing that he continually goes around telling people how to behave, to stop posting, or to leave.

Some people may not particularly like the way I present my arguments or read some kind of arrogance into it just because I can be pig-headed with my views, but at least I avoid that kind of holier-than-thou attitude.

Glad im not crazy, not yet at least

the zen and art of making mountains out of molehills. ommmmmmm...