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Raife
I know elementals can have really good intelligence ratings, but how do you think they interpret our world?

This came up in a game we just finished playing. One of my players used a favor to command his air elemental to manifest and attack. Now he felt the air elemental would use its confuse powers before it engulfed ect ect.

I simply had the elemental engulf guys and start sufficating them. There was some debate over the matter on the "intelligence" level of the force 7 elemental. I figured it thought like air, not like a person.

The elemental just deprived its targets of air (creating a vortex and pulling the air away from the person it engulfed) I recon that the "confuse" spell it can use is more an effect that mimics a confuses spell, by buffeting the target around.

He thought the elemental was smarter and could interpret our world much easier. I know many people would say "your the GM, end of story" but I don't like to have that kind of heavy handed approach.

So how do you think elementals think?
Zazen
It acted intelligently; elementals don't have the confusion power!
Raife
Sorry, I need to clarify. It was a Wujen elemental from Magic in the Shadows. Its a "Spirit of Wind" but more or less an air elemental. It does however have the confusion power.
Dashifen
I think you did okay. The elemental (or spirit) is free to interpret the command of the summoner as it feels is best. Therefore, it's up to the GM how it attacks unless the player specifies.
BIG BAD BEESTE
"Hey, they lived didn't they?"

OK, a bit flippant, but I personally think you did right in that situation. spirits are effectively NPC's and as the GM are under your judication as to their motives and reasoning. All in all, you "played" the NPC - IE: thought how it would think and resolved its actions accordingly. No shame for your GMing there Term.

Spirits are a little tricky to master as NPC's, but if you follow a basic framework for the different types (Elementals, Loa, Nature spirits, Spirits of the Elements and Watchers) and stick to those broad definitions then the player doesn't really have a leg to stand on to complain about it. If they wanted the spirit to confuse the targets they should have used a service to command it so, or worded their commands more appropriately. Think of giving orders to summoned spirits as dealing with genies or those tricky wish spells from D&D infamy.

Personally, I treat Elementals as very order specific - think of it like programming a computer or robot - very literally minded. I also try to think like the element too. (BTW Earthdawn's Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets has some very informative infomation as regards to the attitudes - easily lifted for SR). Because these spirits can be repeatedly summoned/commanded for long periods of service I attempt to make them pretty much like clones - IE: as much like each other from one summoning to the next. This way their powers are "the standard package" and thus they are reliable and regular. In fact, I usually make the elemental summoned a recurring visitor.

With Nature Spirits I try to really put a personality behind each and every one summoned based upon the location and also somewhat bias towards the shaman's beliefs, demeanor and personality. Often I include special little powers and traits - IE: ones that set that jazz bar spirit apart from the nightclub/disco spirit dwelling across the astral street. To me these guys are more impulsive and free-form than the regulated, mass-produced, What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get elementals. I tend to include more improvisation in their judgements - after all, they don't need to be controlled like elementals and thus would use their initiative more. Their options are always coloured by theei Domain, however, and the emotional flux of its astral counterpart.

To be honest i haven't really got to use Loa or Spirits of the Elements yet. I would say off the cuff though, that the former have distinct personalities to overpower the summoner's desire - far more a battle of wills to control their actions unless the hougan is fully in tune with the Loa. As for the latter, I'd treat them as a cross between the elemental attitudes and the nature spirits individuallity based upon their home domain. Probably also include a fair mix of enigmatic responses and mystery to their presence too - think of Babylon 5's Vorlons. this also goes well for the double-dutch confusion of Oriental philosophy prevailent to that tradtion.

And as for watchers, well... Really play them up for humour, annoyance and over-indulgent literal-mindedness. These guys are very much linked to their summoner, so reflect that in them - but also allow the player to dictate a few details about them too. Becuase of this bond, I'd be more willing to give leeway in interpreting the summoner's instructions along the lines of the player. Jump on any really obvious command boo-boos but remember that these are more a reflection of the summoner's will than other spirits and therfore more likely to think like they would. This also means that if the player can't think of a clever use that you can, then they won't use it either.

So, overall - if the summoner treats the spirits well, then maybe a bit of leeway in their favour is given to the interpretation of their orders. If badly treated then belligerence of even outright insubordination is more likely. Plus, the stronger the spirit, the more likely it is to have its own agenda.

And then there are the Free spirits out there...
Backgammon
Every use of a power is a service, so you have to specifically order the elemental to use it's power. If you tell it to meterialise and attack, it will do so without using powers. If you tell it to attack and use engulf, it will use engulf once, and attack until the target is dead/unconscious (don't forget to specify which one!) and will charge you 2 services for it. Have it use engulf 3 times during combat, and that's 3 services + 1 for the physical attacking.

Edit: Actually, you could tell the elemental to engulf until the target is disabled. The uniterrupted use of a power is 1 service. If the elemental engulfs, stops, and engulfs again, that's 2. Just wanted to clarify that.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 30 2004, 11:32 AM)
Every use of a power is a service, so you have to specifically order the elemental to use it's power. If you tell it to meterialise and attack, it will do so without using powers. If you tell it to attack and use engulf, it will use engulf once, and attack until the target is dead/unconscious (don't forget to specify which one!) and will charge you 2 services for it. Have it use engulf 3 times during combat, and that's 3 services + 1 for the physical attacking.

That's what I thought too.

@ Raife: It looks like your wu-jen snuck one by the goalie so he should've really kept his mouth shut. If he uses/summons that spirit again you should have it charge retroactively... smile.gif
The White Dwarf
Free spirits might make use of their intelligence raiting more as the player describes. Bound spirits do exactly what theyre told, hence being bound. Remember that spirits dont neccessarily like being bound, and often make attempts to go free when the situation comes up. Its not neccessarily going to even have any interest to try and interpret commands to benefit the caster. This doesnt mean it will fight him at every turn either, but its important to remember that its not like an intelligent computer working with you, its another being. Basically, it does what he says, fulfills its services, and goes home. If he presumed it would act differently, he needed to use more specific commands.
LaughingTiger
I always thought of Elementals as scarily indifferent spirits. They simply don't think in a metahuman way. I think you did just fine, even giving him a bonus by using the engulf power. He asked it to attack, and it did.

Geez, now I'm thinking of Terminator 2. I'd say spirits also require some pretty detailed directions for certain activities. Leaving it up to the spirit to decide could result in nasty or just plain funny results
Misfit Toy
Note that Spirits of the Elements and Elementals are two radically different types of spirits. The former are closer to faeries while the latter are closer to demons.
mfb
huh. i usually put summoned spirits pretty much under the control of the player whose character did the summoning. so, for instance, if the character says "attack that guy", the elemental can take the best course of action. now, if there's some reason why the spirit might take a disliking to the character--they use it to soak drain on a regular basis, for instance--then i start taking more control of the spirit, and have it take a more limited view of the commands it recieves.
Paul
Now thats a dman intresting question.

Player: I tell my spirit to manifest and attack.
GM: The spirit looks at you and shakes its head. Then it says "Stupid your out numbered, I ain't risking my life for your obviously sundstandard....[Rant]"
Player: Huh?

Raife
Actually the conversation went like this...

Wujen: I tell my spirit of air to attack.
GM: It manifests into a gale, the air around you howls (force 7 spirit). You can see a pixie like face laughing in the wind as it rushes the ruthenium clad ninja.
Wujen: Why did it have to manifest?
GM: Cus the ninja isn't astrally active.
Wujen: Then it should have cast confuse, its a force 7 spirit, that means it has a 7 intelligence, confuse is the smart thing to do.
GM: No, using a power for you is a different service. And If I was made of air, I'd take the simple route, EI: Suffocate them with Engulf... technically engulfing is a seperate service too, but I thought this fit the moment.
Wujen: <continues to debate the issue for about 10 minutes>
BitBasher
It doesnt matter then, it has to manifest to confuse anyway. It has to manifest to use powers on anyone other than the caster than are not astrally present.
mfb
which is why i let the player control their elementals unless there's a compelling reason not to (eg, the player begins abusing the privilege).
Misfit Toy
That's what I do, too. Keeps a lot of work out of my hands as the GM, while insuring the character's commands to the spirit result in exactly what he was going for. As long as one service is removed for each power it uses, there shouldn't be any problem with it.
Raife
Hmm, I think I'm gonna go to a successess x days.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Raife)
Hmm, I think I'm gonna go to a successess x days.

For what? Nature spirits automatically leave at the next sunrist or sundown IIRC, and elementals use a service automatically every 24 hours they are force to stand around, whether or not theyre doing anything.
Raife
I was thinking to move to a more "free form" summoning ruleset. But after close examination of the rules, I much prefer them the way they are.

I'm gonna trick my player into summoning an ancestor spirit... who I feel would act a lot like Margaret Cho's mom.

BitBasher
Er, unless he's a wujen he cannot summon an ancestor spirit. Hermetics can only summon elementals, Shaman can only summon nature Spirits, ect.
mfb
any shaman can summon ancestor spirits, if they choose that ability at character creation--to do so, though, they have to give up access to spirits of man. bitbasher's statement is still true in the described situation, though.
BitBasher
I know there wa a situation in which shamans could, but no player in my game has ever chosen that option. biggrin.gif
mfb
they can be handy if you don't tend to move around much. for instance, i've got a char attending U-Dub, shadowrunning as a supplement for her scholarships. her grandfather wanders around in a 20k radius centered on her dorm room, heckling the students and giving the character help when she needs it.
Lantzer
That just gave me a funny mental image:

An ancestor spirit on a college campus, standing in the quad telling students that they need to shape up if they want to get to heaven.

An interesting variation off the old 'quad preacher', eh?
Raife
Well if you check out above, the character IS a wujen.

And yeah, I can't wait to yell things like "why don't you marry a nice girl and settle down? All this stealing and murder will only bar you from heaven. Give me a nice great great great great great grandchild and get a real job!"

simonw2000
QUOTE (Lantzer)
That just gave me a funny mental image:

An ancestor spirit on a college campus, standing in the quad telling students that they need to shape up if they want to get to heaven.

An interesting variation off the old 'quad preacher', eh?

Props.
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