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252
Okay, here are my questions that were thrown at my by two of my gamers.

Spark Plugs supposedly can have their ceramics ripped off and thrown at any window, even car windows, and they will puncture a small hole, and crack them up.

Is this true, and what kind of backing besides I know so can you document.

What about armored glass, yes this is important. Because the vehicle in question was an armored car.

Also supposedly armored glass in an armored car can easily be slammed out. I see this as being made more as a safety in case of a fire procedure. Not because it is actually week. If the manufacturer wanted to make it so, it could be just as resilent as other armored vehicle parts.

If you could help me out fine, if not. I'm GM, I'm the freakin God in my game. So that is all I need.
mfb
someone has been feeding you filthy, dirty lies. go wash your mouth out, then hit them with something sturdy.
Arethusa
A spark plug? Think of what any comparitively small, relatively lightweight piece of metal thrown will do.

Consider yourself the victim of players throwing bullshit at you, knowingly or otherwise. Sparkplugs will not puncture glass better than anything else, much less ballistic polymers, and you cannot just push out armored windows. It just doesn't happen.

[edit]

Listen to mfb. He's got the right idea. Violence is not the answeró unless the question is "what is totally awesome?"
Zephania
let them think it does until a really inoportune moment and then
" BWAAHAAHAA you really thought I'd let you get away with that!? Now you're trapped underwater and the leviathan is closing in fast..."
252
The thing of pushed out was not the way of the question was to be sounded as...

I meant slammed out as in, two legs slamming into the windshield, while the body is firmly braced against a seat. A very strong position for repeatedly hitting something strongly. I do not mean, I push up against the window, and pop out it flies, with 1 psi. Hell you breathing too hard would result in the window flying out.

And you seem to not understand that I'm talking about the ceramic piece within the sparkplug. I don't have any pictures here to show. But there is ceramic in it. I don't know if it is chemically any different from some of those ceramic pots and pans and what not. But it could be...

I agree with chances are that these guys are talking about crap. That they have no idea about. Because I'm not finding much of anything about this. And most of these guys didn't get much past high school. Not saying that they doesn't mean they have to be stupid. But it does mean that they may lack certain advanced knowledge skills of such stuff we are talking about.
Arethusa
Even so, they are not intended to pop out. That would be a major security hole, no pun intended. If all it took was someone of sufficient strength and a construction grade suction cup, any light armored civilian vehicle could be popped in seconds. It's not unfathomable that a window could be designed to release. It's unfathomable that anyone would want to do this. Also, remember that these windows have to be capable of withstanding impact that could dislodge them quite easily. Stopping bullets is not an easy thing, and lots of energy is being transferred quite rapidly.

As for the spark plug, ceramics do not necessarily have to be porcelain, but that still doesn't mean anything. You can't throw a spark plug through an impact resistant window without taking that thing supersonic, and I'm not even sure then. Ceramics have little to nothing to do with that. And since you mention chemical composition, keep in mind that ceramic's basically chemically inert for all practical purposes. Has nothing to do with this.

In short, your players have, knowingly or not, been feeding you bullshit. Perhaps they're quite stupid. Perhaps they're just incredibly ignorant. Perhaps they're just really duplicitous. Perhaps it's something innocuous and completely other. No one's really making any judgements of your players, and I'm not really sure what you're getting defensive for.
Arethusa
As much as I'll admit I am surprised at that, it really doesn't mean much (though, as the second link says, I'm surprised I've never heard of this before). You can and I know of people who have punched through windshields with their bare hands. None of this has much to do with allowing you to punch through ballistic glass.
Frag-o Delux
Most of those seem like the theif used the whole spark plug.

EDIT: The original post post was talking about plain glass, then also asked for opinions on armored glass.

As for the regular glass, you said you were not interested in "Because I know" stories, so I will not say.

Armored glass? Hell no. A bullet has a hard time doing it. I man powered projectile most deffinetly won't.
Arethusa
Also worth noting that they were not thrown, as the first post suggests.
Frag-o Delux
I have seen what I was told to be spark plug ceramic used as a thrown window breaker.

I can tell you a thousand and one ways to get into a car. Some more subtle then others and a lot to get around alarms if you wish.

I can not provide links, as the people I was with at the time were not very photogenic. I can probably get some letters from them, if they are still in the jails I last knew they were in.

I can tell you how to get into most buildings also. I still use some of those tricks at work, when I get locked and leave my swipe card in on my tool box. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
Those links talked about a sharp impact breaking a safety glass -- glass that's supposed to break into bits when hit by something hard. I'm guessing a spark plug is good for this because it's small (easy to conceal), rather sharp (small area, large pressure), sturdy and ceramic (which means it's almost completely inelastic). You might as well use a small metal rod or something similar, spark plugs are simply easily accessed and concealed and rather inconspicuous.

Also, based on those links, a thrown spark plug would be a very unreliable window-breaker. Although, assuming car side windows really are designed to shatter whenever they are handled roughly, who knows.

Armored glass is specifically designed to not break, regardless of how hard you hit it with hard, pointy things. A spark plug won't be of any use trying to break through one. None. You'd have to get the spark plug to hit the armored pane at bullet velocities to stand a chance of penetration, and that's all you'd get -- armored glass just doesn't shatter.

Also, as was already said, armored glass does not pop out of place, not unless the vehicle in question is made extremely poorly. Or if the braced person doing the kicking is a cybertroll with hydraulic jacks and the glass (and the vehicle) is only lightly armored.
252
Alright thanks for all the help.

Could anyone tell me if this ceramic thrown weapon would work on one of those ballastic armored glasses though. I mean for certain.

I don't need documentation. But it better not read like some cheap story that I could buy for fifty cents from some moron down the streets.

I doubt the characters will ever get into the same situation again, I think I was way to light. I have to be meaner to these punks definitely the ones who whine out of character at me. I hate it, but I got to roll with it.
Cray74
QUOTE
Spark Plugs supposedly can have their ceramics ripped off and thrown at any window, even car windows, and they will puncture a small hole, and crack them up.  ...  Could anyone tell me if this ceramic thrown weapon would work on one of those ballastic armored glasses though. I mean for certain.


Sure...if you throw them hard enough. But the same can be said of Nerf foam footballs: if you throw them hard enough, they'll wreck a windshield.

I mean, there's nothing special about the ceramic-vs-glass combination. It's just a matter of overcoming yield strengths, like any armor-defeating attempt. You still need adequate force behind the ceramic projectile to defeat the armor.

QUOTE
Also supposedly armored glass in an armored car can easily be slammed out.  I see this as being made more as a safety in case of a fire procedure.  Not because it is actually week.  If the manufacturer wanted to make it so, it could be just as resilent as other armored vehicle parts.

If you want the window designed that way, then it can probably be built that way. However, standard armored windows would need the same Body and armor tests as any other part of the car.
Snow_Fox
Fro car windows in 2004 sure, but that's because finding a rock in Harlem is hard and you draw attention to yourself if you walk around with a brick or cinder block in your hand.

If it's a known problem now. I think we can safely say, even without the awakening they'd have fixed it in 60 years time. certainly armored glass is not going to be so vulnerable.
Plastic Rat
I note that the SAFETY aspect of popping out windshields (I take this to mean from the inside) was mentioned, and yes, I would allow someone to do it in game, especially from the position mentioned. Sitting in seat with both legs kicking at glass.

In most cases to avoid people being trapped inside a car, a car windshield should be able to be kicked out from the inside, armored or not. In many accidents, whole windshields are known to come flying out from the housing. They're designed to withstand impacts from the outside, not the inside and I don't really see this changing a whole lot in 60 years.

The spark-plug thing, wow, guess you learn something new every day. (Nice links Our Team). Going through automotive school we learned pretty much every abuse of innocent mechanical objects you could imagine being perpetrated, including what happens when you connect an arc-welder to a car battery and turn on the juice (DON'T try this at home kids). And in that time I NEVER heard the spark-plug ceramic - window thing. Where I grew up I guess we pretty much stuck with the traditional half-brick or tyre iron.

I'd would like to find out a bit more about this. But if it works now, I don't see why it wouldn't work 60 years from now (although I would say spark-plugs would quite a bit rarer than today). I would probably let them get away with it on normal glass, but armored glass, nope, I'm pretty sure the manufacturers would plug that particular security hole quick, fast and in a hurry.

I'd rule a throwing weapons test doing say STR(S) base damage against the object resistance of the glass. Armored,... possibly tripple or quadruple it's rating.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Could anyone tell me if this ceramic thrown weapon would work on one of those ballastic armored glasses though. I mean for certain.
Just like every single poster above has already said, but you keep repeating it, NO it will not work. There is no special property to it at all, there is no magic ceramic vs glass issue that causes windows to break. Ballistic or armored windows are designed to stop a LOT more kinetic energy that you can generate tossing a very light piece of ceramic. It's kind of like asking if you flap your arms hard enough you can fly to the moon.

I work in a jail, and I have talked to countless hoodlums, the spark plugs are used to break windows because they fit confortable into the hand and make for a very small, very stiff point of impact and are easily concealable. That's it. They are swung in a fist, not thrown. They are good against normal glass, just like brass knuckles, a brick, rock or damn near anything else is, they just dont attract as much attention and are convenient in size.
Jason Farlander
How about, rather than requesting proof that a thrown spark plug can not break armored glass (which probably does not exist in as direct a form as you would like), you demand that your players provide an example of a spark plug being used to break armored glass in real life before allowing them to use that tactic in-game.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Plastic Rat)
I'd rule a throwing weapons test doing say STR(S) base damage against the object resistance of the glass. Armored,... possibly tripple or quadruple it's rating.

Or how about using the rules concerning Barrier Ratings and attacking them? Because you can break unarmored windows with damn near anything using those rules -- the average window is BR 2, which a STR 4 guy can bash barehanded.

Armored glass should have a Barrier Rating of at least 10 (to reliably stop Heavy Pistol rounds), which means you need a STR 9 guy with a club and a lot of time to bash through it. To shatter such a window with a single attack, you need an adjusted Power of 20 or more with most attacks. That means a STR 17 troll with a Spear, for example.
Eyeless Blond
Indeed, it's not like a spark plug is anything special, or that the ceramic tip is necessary at all. In fact, most emergency response teams carry window punches like that one that will safely and easily punch through most glass types. Plate glass and safety glass will break easily when you apply a large force to a sharp point, which is why spark plugs and other objects that can focus your hand's mass into a small impact area work well. Safety glass in particular is designed to shatter on impact into small non-jagged pieces so you don't get cut up when your windshield breaks, so even improvised window punches work very easily.

Armored glass is different, though, for the exact reasons everyone above mention. Armored glass is designed to *not* break, and so it won't.
Kanada Ten
I will totally go on a tangent and say that tempered glass shatters on contact with an IR laser beam, and even armored glass melts away. Why doesn't the tool laser come in the hand? Why must I get a cybereye there first? ;)
Cray74
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I will totally go on a tangent and say that tempered glass shatters on contact with an IR laser beam, and even armored glass melts away. Why doesn't the tool laser come in the hand? Why must I get a cybereye there first? wink.gif

Tempered glass will melt and shatter with an IR laser if you put enough energy into the window. As for armored glass, barrier rating rules should dictate whether or not the laser is capable of defeating the glass.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Tempered glass will melt and shatter with an IR laser if you put enough energy into the window.

250 Watts, 10.6 uM to be exact. To melt it without shattering it, you have to use very little power, very little. The heat expansion must be near zero and you almost always must start on the edge of the glass.
Arethusa
Any glass, not just tempered should fair horribly under an IR laser. As for ballistic glass, given that it's not glass at all and often a polyemer, resin, or some screwy combination thereof, I'd say there's much more room for interpretation as to whether or not it has any effect.

Also, why would this spark plug business possibly not work 60 years from now? One word: Lexan.
KillaJ
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I will totally go on a tangent and say that tempered glass shatters on contact with an IR laser beam.

If any one more knowledgeable than myself could help me out with a few questions it would be appreciated.

1. What is the difference between an IR laser and a "regular" laser?

2. If they are not "regular" lasers where might an enterprising shadowrunner lay his hands on one?

3. Is tempered glass the standard garden variety sort you see everyday?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
1. What is the difference between an IR laser and a "regular" laser?

IR (infrared) laser is the one you use to cut metal, plastic, flesh, and so on. It is the typical "damaging" laser. Especially the CO2 variety. The Ares MP, Firelance, Eye and Tool Laser are all "most likely" IR lasers. Other frequencies, even Near Infrared, do not damage organic matter (plastic, paper, flesh) well.
252
Three I can answer as yes and no. Tempered means simplisticly as a 'toughened' glass. You should diffinently see this very often. I may be wrong, but I believe they have been using this to term what a safty glass is, as in the stuff that you see every day from your car, and see through it, and are on everyone elses car.


Garden variety glass. Is just the normal stuff in well. I won't say most windows. But if you have an older house, or don't have all the plexi-glass type windows because you or your brother are into firing a few foul balls into your houses windows and what not. There is a good chance that is just Glass.

Ballistic Windows, are the ones that you have on your standard security vehicles, like the ones that move money from place to place.
252
Can we use a gamma laser, that would be very funny. Okay for a few questions of my own. Now that someone has stolen this board, but I don't care. If we use a gamma laser (Uses Gamma Wavelength and Frequencies (Yes they are directly related, you can't have one without the other, but soooo.....)) what can't this 'burn' through. Could it burn through an ozone batch, how about buildings. I think hardly anything can stop its penetration, but what about what it does it 'burn'.
Cray74
QUOTE (252)
Can we use a gamma laser, that would be very funny. Okay for a few questions of my own. Now that someone has stolen this board, but I don't care. If we use a gamma laser (Uses Gamma Wavelength and Frequencies (Yes they are directly related, you can't have one without the other, but soooo.....)) what can't this 'burn' through. Could it burn through an ozone batch, how about buildings. I think hardly anything can stop its penetration, but what about what it does it 'burn'.

The question is, as always: how much energy?

1 joule per second (1 watt) of gamma-rays might get all sorts of penetration, but it's still 1 joule per second. It'd take minutes for anyone to notice their flesh warming up from 1 joule per second. The blood stream and conduction could probably carry off that heat. Cancer and radiation poisoning would be more lethal.

If you got 100, or even 1000 joules out of the business end of a graser...still, it won't do a lot of heating. It won't even boil flesh. It'll cause radiation poisoning - maybe - but not much burning or blasting.

Gamma ray lasers would be screwed by the awful energy conversion efficiency of the power source to gamma rays.
Cain
Here's the thing about safety glass. Safety glass is basically just ordinary glass with a thin sheet of plastic running through it, to prevent it sending shards of glass flying every which way. It's not armored, or really any tougher than ordinary glass-- its simply going to tend to hold its shape.

Think of it this way-- first, take a windowpane and hit it with a hammer. Glass shards are going to scatter everywhere. Then, take an identical windowpane, and carefully line one side with clear strapping tape. Now, hit it with the hammer and observe the results. The second will demonstrate what safety glass does-- it doesn't help the glass resist shattering any better, although it will tend to hold its shape.
Domino
Yes safety glass in a windsheild is lamenated put the rear and side windows are tempered and not that hard to break. They are designed to break into many small chunks so as not to form shards. And yes you can break it by throwing a spark plug at the window very hard. You can also use a nonretractable car antenae.

Yes I know this for I have done it. No nothing Malicious Vehicle Extrication drills.
RedmondLarry
Gamma rays pass through most anything, without imparting much energy to the material. Since they don't impart much energy to the material, the material doesn't heat up from the passage of the gamma rays.

Thus, a gamma ray is a poor choice for heating materials.
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