awlright.
I am trying to devise a campaign to help some of my less well equipt, mental-wise, friends/players find a cure for the disease we all know and love (to hate). These guys play some D&D and have a good ole time but when it comes to shadowrun they just don't seem to grasp the SHADOW part.

EX:
player: "I ask the bartender if he's seen the guy I'm looking for"
Bartender: "Sorry, haven't seen em"
player: "I slam his head into the bar, pull out my gun, hold it to his head and ask
again"
Bar full of customers: "jeezus!"

Therefore I thought, maybe they could be led into understanding the finer points of professionalism if I started them off with the street punk types they always seem to portray. Problem with this is: they're munchkins. They only really want big guns and balls-to-the-wires cyberware and as much as I'd like to force them to take only items with an avail of 3 or less I can't do it without hearing what I dread most "Why don't we just play D&D instead?". So, I have this idea that i can make them, with they're munchkin characters, experience a little more of the real world. Namely the police. I mean, why wouldn't you drive a tank down main street and just blow a hole through the first few floors of the corp and send in the rotor drone with the articulate arm to get the data your after?
So, i was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on this subject. And keep in mind I can't just get new friends.

ah yes. That sounds exactly how it will go down. To give you some info on the game, I'm going to give them a smuggling job that invovles selling red-hot knight errant 'surplus' to the mafia. the first thing that goes wrong is that the truck they're taking to get the goods blows a tire and before they can be on their way a beat cop shows up and starts asking questions. My problem is I don't want them to die like that in the first five minutes of the game. Maybe I should though. I never have killed anyone because they are a little inexperienced and I felt bad. Is there a good way to balance out the killing them with the teaching them?
Maybe I should make them watch Ronin before we play...

Here's a thought... if all your players want to play munchkin games, why not give them the kind of game they want? I mean, if they're all going to have fun with it, give them big guns and turn them loose like the little action heroes they want to be.

JaronK

He might not want to GM a munchkin game. The GM is there to have fun, too.

If they can't handle the repercussions of their actions and refuse to play, then you'll have to decide whether gaming with this group is more productive than doing something else with your free time. Some people don't change, and trying to force them to is just going to screw things up if you want to keep your friendship.

I think the thing here is that they can change they just don't know how. Like I said they're coming from the world of D&D where stealth isn't really an issue and starting PCs are weak. They work themselves up quickly to godly status or just start out in a high level campaign. The way I play shadowrun, there is no need to advance the characters from the generation systems unless they are deliberatly made under-powered. Therefore most of their problems seem to stem from the transition from a system where there are levels to reach and experience is based on how many people you kill to the shadowrun system, which, at least in my opinion, requires they only kill people when there isn't another option and roleplay a character who isn't going to change much stats-wise, specifically in the area of how much damage they can take without dying. I think they would learn to enjoy it if I can pull it off right.

In that case, it's all good.

I agree with giving them the equivalent of the common sense edge until they learn your version of the setting. They obviously think things are a bit wilder. You could also have them use character knowledge to see what actions may be appropriate.

Have them roll Etiquette. It's not just for knowing what fork to use when eating at the Space Needle. It should also tell them the acceptable level of mayhem for an area. Also, if they need to get permission from the Don before whacking a guy.

Also have them roll perception when they put the gun to the bartenders head in the crowded bar. Do they notice the looks they are getting? Maybe make your description include a bit of why they all dropped their jaws in surprise. No, it wasn't because their character just pulled an awesomely ballsy move, but that he pulled a boner.

Then when you kill them, they have an idea of why it wasn't the appropriate action for that situation. Just killing them without them understanding why will only spur them to create harder to kill munchkins.

Remember, just because the players are clueless, doesn't mean the characters are. Don't simply describe things - describe them through the lens of the characters. "Starting" shadowrunners have been involved in crime for awhile. The street sammie didn't pick up how to use an assault rifle by plunking bottles in his back yard, and the decker's hot cyberdeck didn't fall off the back of a turnip truck.

Speak through the lens of the characters, who have lived in the sprawl for most of their lives and picked up its rhythms. Tell them if pulling out a gun in the nice part of town will bring 10 squad cars. Tell them that when you run into a few gangers, there are usually a dozen or so of their friends nearby. Tell them that runners tend to avoid killing Lone Star if they can help it, because Lone Star will just lean on the whole underworld, messing up everyone's business, until the community rats out the guilty runners.

Let them make mistakes, but give them fair warning. If you tell them that threatening someone like a bartender in public might make them look like thugs or amateurs and lower their reputation, and that the rough crowd might take exception to it, and that a place like this will usually have a panic button - and they still do it - then let the chips fall where they may.

duely noted.

I remember the notion of a carrot and a stick when I think about changing the behavior of players. Several of the suggestions above are similar to whacking the players with a stick. It's not the most effective way to initiate change, and they may think the goal is to make themselves stronger so they can handle a whack squad.

I suggest you have a couple runs where the Johnson demands they use a subtle touch, and rewards them very well if they do it. He may provide them with a budget for bribes / whiskey / flowers and demand they use it, instead of using muscle.

Perhaps this Johnson starts them off with a run to destroy his previous Shadowrun team, because they were not subtle enough. Your players will enjoy this run, and might learn the consequences someone else had for not being professional. They'll certainly know what the consequences are for failing to meet the Johnson's expectations.

Orky, I suggest looking over Blackjack's page.

Especially the Advice section.

I suggest using a taser on the munchkins.

Electroconvulsive therapy works, but only as long as they don't know its coming until after it has left.

Three words: Enforce zone ratings. New Seattle has a page or two towards the back that describes law enforcement coverage and response for the various zone ratings. Rigger 3 has a page or two in the front that describes exactly how GridGuide works. I get the impression that a lot of GMs disregard these things; Howerver using them makes escaping from the scene of a crime in any area rated higher than C a difficult proposition without a lot of planning ahead. You can't out-drive rigged cameras on every corner, let alone an astral mage on your tail.

Also keep in mind that if LS catches a violent criminal without a SIN there's a chance they'll just execute him on the spot to avoid the paperwork. Resisting arrest, you know. Even if they don't, there's no way the fool will be turned loose with his illegal implants intact.

If the players balk and want to go back to D&D then agree, but quit softballing. I never played much 3E back when I was D&D-inclined but I'm sure there are ways to make munchkins sweat that are entirely within the rules, believable and even fair. Since social skills seem to be the bane of munchkin characters everywhere, give them enough rope to piss off someone powerful then watch as they dig their own graves. Even in D&D there are a hell of a lot of situations where "I whip out my crossbow and waste 'em" is a fatal response.

also, something that hasn't been mentioned is magic. i'm sure even lonestar has a wage-mage or two or three or four or (you get the idea). a few things that could do wonders: ritual sorcery (all they need is some hair or something) a spirit with the alienate ability (i really like that one) or just harass them with some elementals. if they like guns, show them the weakness of pissing off people who don't use only guns.

Don't feel bad, the "Shadow" part of shadowrun is probably one of the more difficult aspects to use in the game. It certainly doesn't help that (in my opinion) alot of the core rules and sourcebook data seems to support more of a guns blazing kinda setting. Ironically, a good "Shadowrun" should be quiet and bordering on boring. Since its exercised so well, and so professionally, that there's barely a whisper of indication you were there.

Thats all well and good. But when presented with the ability to make chromed monsters that tote miniguns and mages that toss mini-tacnuke spells, its easy to get a little lost in the shine.

I guess the trick will be to get them to be a little more mindful when 'running' but also allowing them opportunities to blow off steam and run rampant. There are plenty of opportunities within the seattle region alone for you non-stealthy type adventures and such. But generally speaking, unless its your job description to raise hell on a run because you're being paid to be the diversion, being loud and sloppy on a run can get your character killed