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Well, I'm looking at the price of ammo, even the standard slug and then figuring out roughly how much one would fire in a couple of hours. Do this very often, and well I don't think any of my players will ever make any money for cyberware and stuff. So what should I do?

Is firing at firing ranges really as expensive as I'm estimating or what?
Fygg Nuuton
well using shadowruns gold plated ammunition rules it will be expensive. i recomend rayguns rules, which simulate real life, especially with ammo prices
Arethusa
I concur. Ammo prices, like many other things in canon, are notoriously fucked up. Thankfully, they are pretty easy to fix.
RedmondLarry
Practice shooting at the firing range is covered by most Lifestyle costs, as is the gasoline/electricity to get there, the soft-drink drunk there, and the meal afterwards.
Fygg Nuuton
although you can buy regular ammo on the streets 10 for 15 then sell them legitimately for 20 and make a profit
otomik
actually i think the ammo costs are just right.

1. The cost of regular ammo is supposed to cover all types from .22lr to .50BMG as well as exotic wildcat cartridges, look it up and you'll actually find that a good price on .50BMG is 2 bucks a bullet, when you gotta come up with a price for all cartridges you price it at whats the most expensive cartridge a character could fire.

2. Seattle metroplex is very urbanized area, perhaps Governor Schultz is a liberal democrat that's trying a bullshit "tough on crime" stance by putting a horrendous Ammunition Tax ordinance in place, some areas in Cali have tried to do this.

3. They're packaged in small quantities of 10 and pre-loaded into "Universal Clips" available in Vending machines on every corner, you pay for convenience like that chummer.

"I dream of a world in which I can buy alcohol, tobacco, and firearms at the same drive-in window, and use them all before I get home from work." -Dogbert
otomik
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Practice shooting at the firing range is covered by most Lifestyle costs, as is the gasoline/electricity to get there, the soft-drink drunk there, and the meal afterwards.

well, thats a classic quote often countered by the equally classic "what if i didn't buy a lifestyle? it's gotta cost something"
RedmondLarry
If you didn't buy a lifestyle, no problem. Hand-carve your bow, make your own arrows and arrowheads, walk in your bare feet (5 miles up hill each way) to the firing range, and since you can't get in you should just shoot arrows at people coming out. wink.gif
The Grifter
Canon ammo prices sound about right to me, but it could just be the prices of ammunition in the great state of KenSucky. I practice with my Taurus 24/7 9mm quite often, so I'm always buying ammo. A box of 50 9mm Winchester brand FMJs comes out to about $8.75, and a box of Holow Points is $11.50, in the same caliber. Now, I'm thinking most firearms in Shadowrun, especially the heavy pistols, probably make use of 10mm ammo, which is more expensive nowadays, but could actually be alot cheaper in the future.

And, I agree on Otomik's idea about a "tough on crime" high ammunition tax, if you don't agree with canon prices. Good way to explain the cost to your players, and not let them talk you into dropping the price down. At last count, our team's street sammy had around something like 800 rounds of Heavy pistol ammo, not counting all his gel rounds, explosive rounds, APDS, and all that. Or the ammunition for his other weapons. On the other hand, my decker has an Ares Viper and still has yet to fire a single round from it. *LOL* Waste not, want not, I suppose.
otomik
QUOTE
Canon ammo prices sound about right to me, but it could just be the prices of ammunition in the great state of KenSucky. I practice with my Taurus 24/7 9mm quite often, so I'm always buying ammo. A box of 50 9mm Winchester brand FMJs comes out to about $8.75, and a box of Holow Points is $11.50, in the same caliber. Now, I'm thinking most firearms in Shadowrun, especially the heavy pistols, probably make use of 10mm ammo, which is more expensive nowadays, but could actually be alot cheaper in the future.

somewhat off topic but I think 10mm will die, not a lot of new firearms coming out with long magwells. The situation is worse now with the introduction of .45GAP. If that becomes popular the main reason for making guns with longer magwells (.45ACP) will be gone and with it a lot longer cartridges like .38 Super, 9x23mm, 7.62x25mm, 10mm will only survive in 1911s.

Those prices are bad, do you belong to one of those ranges were they make you buy their overpriced reloadable ammo?
9mm 115gr. Blazer, 50 for $5
http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentI...FTOKEN=17171743
plenty of deals here too
http://www.ammoman.com/webstore_9mm.htm
Austere Emancipator
What sort of handguns do you see police oficers using in the SR 2060s in that case? Will those who might have to fire at a troll (which, I assume, will cover about 100% of all police officers) simply not carry semi-automatic pistols, opting for revolvers in something like .41 Magnum instead?
Fygg Nuuton
im no ballistics expert but 10mm always seemed right for shooting at trolls. IIRC it was cut down to .40 S&W because of overpenetration, beign less of a concern when there are alot of things bigger than you out there wink.gif
Siege
Remember, you also have to allow for controllable fire - I'm not a small man and my .45 will leave my hands comfortably numb.

Anything much larger will be difficult to manage for most people - that is part of the reason why the .40 was developed. As a compromise between the 9mm and the .45 round.

Although I'd have to check sources to confirm that particular nuance of the .40 S&W.

With trolls and the proliferation of body armor, I'd imagine that most LS cops would have a magazine of AP ammo - although that is not canon. Simply my speculation on the escalation of force.

-Siege
Large Mike

As for cops who have to fire at trolls, I have one word: Thunderbolt.

As for ammo prices, I know I bitch about how expensive ammo is *every* time I go to the range, so why shouldn't my players?
Siege
How much do you pay per box at the range?

At Wal-Mart or Gallyan's (fancy sporting goods store) a box of 50 .45 rounds costs me $10-$12.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
im no ballistics expert but 10mm always seemed right for shooting at trolls.

That depends on exactly how large you see the SR trolls as being. If they really only weigh about 225kg on average, hotter 10mm FMJs or even SPs might do the trick, thanks to the rather shallow thoraxes of humanoids. However, if you see trolls as being 2.8 meter bone-plated monstrosities, you should be packing something a lot more powerful than 10mm Auto.

QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
IIRC it was cut down to .40 S&W because of overpenetration, beign less of a concern when there are alot of things bigger than you out there

Overprenetration is not bad and using less powerful weapons simply because of overpenetration is just silly, not to mention that you can get a .40S&W to fully penetrate several humans as well as a 10mm Auto to stop within 8" of flesh -- not that you'd want to. .40S&W is probably more common mostly because it's smaller in size and has lighter recoil while still being quite capable of killing humans.

QUOTE (Siege)
With trolls and the proliferation of body armor, I'd imagine that most LS cops would have a magazine of AP ammo

Seeing how common body armor is in canon SR, that would make sense. But I certainly wouldn't want to use AP handgun ammunition against trolls -- those might cleanly penetrate the troll, but a permanent wound cavity smaller than 10mm in diameter won't bother it too much (on the short run) unless you directly hit the spine, brain, heart, or a major artery between the last two.

[Edit]A 10mm AP bullet vs a (2.8 meter) troll is relatively the same as a 6mm AP bullet against a human, and I'm sure many police officers would not be very happy about being issued FN Five-seveNs with SS190 ammunition IRL.[/Edit]

If there were 2.8-meter-tall bone-plated humanoid monsters IRL, we'd probably consider anything smaller than a .338 or a 12G magnum slug far too weak for hunting them.

QUOTE (Large Mike)
As for cops who have to fire at trolls, I have one word: Thunderbolt.

Indeed. Or, in fact, a Heavy Pistol caliber Heavy Pistol. However, I'm interested in slightly more detail...
Siege
Speaking from a game mechanic standpoint, any BF heavy pistol would be useful. Against high-Body targets, EX explosive ammo is probably the best choice of all the canon munitions available. (It's a good thing nobody can get hit by someone missing a shot grinbig.gif )

In real life, trying to accurately use a BF handgun in a .45 round would take a lot of practice.

At which point you might as well upgrade to something bigger.

Industrial strength tasers could work, but what incapacitates an Ork or even a Troll would probably kill anything else.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Siege)
In real life, trying to accurately use a BF handgun in a .45 round would take a lot of practice.

Very true, and you'd still be restricted to non-deforming ammunition to get the kind of penetration required. I don't think automatic fire is the solution, not for street cops anyway. (Regardless of what SR canon might want you to believe.)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
although you can buy regular ammo on the streets 10 for 15 then sell them legitimately for 20 and make a profit

Only if you've got the box, and the ammo is all from the same manufacturer, etc.

~J
John Campbell
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
although you can buy regular ammo on the streets 10 for 15 then sell them legitimately for 20 and make a profit

I suspect that it's not possible to legitimately sell ammo that you acquired on the streets. At risk of resurrecting the SI debate, I figure that part of the reason for the reduced price is that much of the ammo you find on the streets didn't get there legitimately, and skipped the BATF (or equivalent) bureaucracy and some or all of the associated taxes, tariffs, surcharges, and other costs. In the black market, that's fine, but if you start trying to sell it in legitimate markets, sooner or later someone's going to notice that your merchandise doesn't have the appropriate stamps, seals, paperwork, and so on, and start asking inconvenient questions.
Necrotic Monkey
So regular ammo today costs about 10 cents a round? And in 2064 regular ammo cost about $2.00 a round? That's less than a 2,000% increase in price. Be happy it's not on the same scale as most other things were from 1944 to today.

But oh yeah, I keep forgetting that guns aren't supposed to change in any way whatsoever in 60 years. Especially price. My mistake.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 17 2004, 05:11 PM)
How much do you pay per box at the range?

At Wal-Mart or Gallyan's (fancy sporting goods store) a box of 50 .45 rounds costs me $10-$12.

-Siege

Wow, at wal-mart a box of 100 Winchester .40S&W costs me only 14.95.

EDIT: Also...

I rule you can buy ammo for about 1/4 the price just for range shooting. plinkers are much chepaer than a shigh quality hollowpooint or match grade rounds, but they are less accurate to some degree and have far worse balistic profiles for shooting at things that scream and bleed.

For good quality ammo today you can easily get up to 2 bucks a round for high quality match grade ammo.

That being said I like expensive ammo in SR. Money sinks are nifty. I like players thinking "2 Bucks" every time they shoot at a baddie and miss. biggrin.gif
Clyde
Hey, it's caseless, right? You gotta pay for not having to pick up all that messy brass . . . biggrin.gif

Of course, you could always do your training in a simsense environment of some kind. Heck, you could match yourself up against the last five UCAS Olympic shooting teams. And with your smartlink, you might even clean up on them! (I'm sure the Olympics wouldn't allow smartlinked guns, or would they?)

Either way, prices can change easily enough, all it takes is a pencil (which probably costs $50 in shadowrun).
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)
So regular ammo today costs about 10 cents a round? And in 2064 regular ammo cost about $2.00 a round? That's less than a 2,000% increase in price. Be happy it's not on the same scale as most other things were from 1944 to today.

But oh yeah, I keep forgetting that guns aren't supposed to change in any way whatsoever in 60 years. Especially price. My mistake.

If everything in SR had been hit with a similar inflation rate, that might make some sense. But not everything has, unless you can get a permanent "High Lifestyle" with a one-time investment of $50,000 IRL, or legally buy a high-quality semi-automatic pistol with less than 20 bucks. I somehow doubt you can. Additionally, according to your logic, the price of all goods and services in Italy were slashed by 99.5% in 2001-2002.

[Here's hoping you were joking.]
otomik
i'd say cops are afraid of Trolls and go for whatevers in their trunk before confronting them whenever they can anticipate that situation. probably to a less degree with orks, and they'll band together as goblinized and call it racial profiling, file a few harassment suits in return. Politicians wanting to distance themselves from the shitstorm will privitized law enforcement further as a way of "passing the buck".

"Suspect is described as a large ork male."

The way things are going the only way police are going to get a 10mm, burst-fire and other really un-politically correct sidearms is with significant pressure from police unions bitching about their undertrained officers being "outgunned".
Necrotic Monkey
A lot of things in Shadowrun have been hit by an insane inflation rate. Computers and Ammunition are just two of them. Others haven't changed much at all. Why? The gods only know. But considering that 100 nuyen is pocket change in the standard Shadowrun game, buying 50 rounds of regular ammo for that much isn't this monumental blow to reality that a few of you are trying to suggest it is.
Austere Emancipator
I completely agree that it is not a monumental blow to reality. I'd even agree that when you've got to use just one price for all ammunition it makes sense to use a rather high price. However, the main reason why several items in SR have rather weird prices is that the designers didn't know and didn't really care either. Using inflation, or even general trends in consumer price changes, to explain it is just plain wrong -- like explaining telepathy with the electromagnetic fields caused by the human nervous system.
otomik
QUOTE
I'd even agree that when you've got to use just one price for all ammunition it makes sense to use a rather high price. However, the main reason why several items in SR have rather weird prices is that the designers didn't know and didn't really care either. Using inflation, or even general trends in consumer price changes, to explain it is just plain wrong -- like explaining telepathy with the electromagnetic fields caused by the human nervous system.

People listen to the apologists because they want to believe, because they got all these books and they don't want to believe the stuff in them is completely wrong. in religion and in RPGs. If i was playing a game with telepathy you bet i'd mention the possibility of the shuman resonance as a medium for telepathy. come on this is a post-modern cyberpunk RPG, it's all about appropriation without regarding original intention (look at all the people FASA stole from, Gibson had no idea people would use his ideas like this).
Siege
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 17 2004, 05:11 PM)
How much do you pay per box at the range?

At Wal-Mart or Gallyan's (fancy sporting goods store) a box of 50 .45 rounds costs me $10-$12.

-Siege

Wow, at wal-mart a box of 100 Winchester .40S&W costs me only 14.95.

EDIT: Also...

I rule you can buy ammo for about 1/4 the price just for range shooting. plinkers are much chepaer than a shigh quality hollowpooint or match grade rounds, but they are less accurate to some degree and have far worse balistic profiles for shooting at things that scream and bleed.

For good quality ammo today you can easily get up to 2 bucks a round for high quality match grade ammo.

That being said I like expensive ammo in SR. Money sinks are nifty. I like players thinking "2 Bucks" every time they shoot at a baddie and miss. biggrin.gif

Now you've got me wondering.

Time to go shopping at Wal-Mart.

-Siege
BitBasher
Yeah, Wall Mart provides me all my plinking ammo needs. biggrin.gif
RedmondLarry
There will be tremendous inflation between 2004 and 2064. At a 7% annual inflation rate (for example), prices double roughly every 10 years (financial rule of 72). If prices double every 10 years for 60 years, things will cost roughly 60 to 70 times as much in 2064 as in 2004.

Therefore a cheap meal at $10 today will go for 10 nuyen.gif in 2064. A cheap motel room at $30 today will go for 30 nuyen.gif in 2064. A $40 car rental will go for 40 nuyen.gif in 2064. A cheap apartment at $1000 per month today will be a cheap apartment at 1000 nuyen.gif per month in 2064.

That's how inflation works in Shadowrun.
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