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Mystery Mantis
OK, i know that this has most likely come up at many points, and i am sorry if i am repeatedly beating the rotted (possibly fossilized) corpse of a dead horse, but...
The books for SR are usually a little on the unclear side. I Know, I know, i can just read it again and get a whole new and better perspective, but after the second or third time, it should stop being different. I have (most unfortunately) been in and out of groups too much. The worst part about it? having to teach a whole new group of people the same things that i know drove my old players away (and i don't mean explosive, APDS, Barrete rounds to their heads! Not that i ever do that at all, ever, or nothing... nyahnyah.gif ) It is hard for them to just pick up a book looking for the ultimate combo of gear/magic/cyber to make them cheesy *AHEM* happy with thier characters.
I personally feel I have a good hold of the system. But what I really (oh god, better put on the flame retardant equiptment *shuffle shuffle*) wish *cringes, throws up arms hoping not to get blasted for saying the W word* that the book had a little better organization and layout.
My players always seem to find something, and then read it in a way that I am sure is wrong, and then even though we noth no we saw it, can not find it fast enough to keep a game going. Then I make a GM call, that kind of leaves them wanting and me wondering. (I even think that they make crap up jsut to get me to make a ruling on things that don't really exist. not that i mind, or nothin. Hell! being creative is kind of the point right? frown.gif right?) anyways, i guess my complaint is that i LOVE (LOVE!!!) SR, but i wish i could just have a true understanding.
Anyways, is there a possibilty that could happen anytime soon? At least for the main book? Like, maybe instead of the way it is, take everything and lay it out in an outline style of format, with step by step charts that don't get too wordy till they get into the breakdown later on? And maybe take everything that goes together and moving it together and then adding page references to other good points in the book that will add to what you are looking at?
What do ya'll think? Maybe it is just me (go ahead and say it to whoever is going to say that, and go ahead and pull this spot to go with it if ya want to), but I know when a player is not getting total satisfaction, and when they keep focusing on not having something cool becuase we never figured it out, that sucks.
BTW- want examples of the stuff they bitch about? Melee combat, just about the whole thing none of them get, and i bareley get either. magic, they never really know what a fetish is, and what it does, and why it is not a severly dicounted power focus. Cyberwear, they don't seem to know what they are getting into untill I add up the spent Essence, and tell them they are now a zombie, or worse that the doc didn't even need them to make them into what they are, jsut fuse all the parts together and vioala! samerai! it is mostly little things like that, that are not very clear to them (well the cyber thing is a stretch, but they do get a little confused about what some gear does and whether it will work how they think) but the little details are what kills them. becuase the book is too vague for the little details.
one more thing, PLEASe don't flame me. i am out of the gel that helps me keep from catching fire so easy, and my eyebrows still haven't grown back from the last time that happened...
feedback guys, i jsut want others views and possibly some hope for a more organized SR3 rulebook.
Synner
Let me just say that spaces between paragraphs are everyone's friends.
Herald of Verjigorm
Basic book and GM screen provide the basis. The most commonly used charts are in the GM screen. Before allowing a character to be magical or a decker or whatever else, be sure to read all relevant sections of the book, put a bookmark at each one, and discuss between GM and player anything that is not clear.

Never let them pick out cyberware without keeping track of the essense costs as they go. Much like you don't buy all the stuff you want before looking at the price, don't replace all your fleshy parts without looking at how much you can take.

About the fetish vs. power focus: look at limited spells, and then hit them with something heavy and blunt.
Arcanum V
How is this thread worthy of an "In Character" tag next to the post title?
Fortune
I don't really find the books vague.

You listed some pretty broad catagories that you seem to be having trouble grasping. Could you be a bit more specific in telling us what you don't understand?
Zazen
It sounds like your problem is being overwhelmed with material, rather than it being too vague. Shadowrun is very complicated. Take it a little at a time; even veterans don't know it all.

My recipe for success: when something happens in the middle of a game that you're not sure about, make something up and then always look it up later! Rather than trying to read the entire book cover to cover, just read the parts that applied to your last game. When you're looking up something to fit your specific situation, it has a much greater impact. You'll remember it and understand it much more clearly.

As for your players learning the rules, I'm curious to know if PlasticRats new guides are finished yet. I think he posted about them many months ago, but I haven't seen anything yet.
Synner
Mantis - You seem to require a walkthough of the game mechanics step by step. Since I doubt you'll find anyone here ready to give you the full rundown here are two suggestions:

a) Get yourself (if you can) the SR Quick Start Rules and start with those. When you're comfortable with that move on to more difficult aspects.

b) Keep the GM screen close at hand, it has 90% of the answers you need in a typical gaming situation.

c) If you have specific problems/doubts post them here, I'm sure you'll find someone with a reply.

You will find that most of us don't find the rules all that vague. Yes, there some problem areas (some addressed in the Errata, some in the FAQ and some not yet addressed) but nothing as major as the Melee Rules.
Crusher Bob
One of the problems is that concise and easy to understand instructions are very hard to write. That's why there is a job called 'technical writer'. Very few gaming companies employ such august people, nor have they rule writers typically had experience or education in conveying complex or mathematical (i.e. game rules) subjects. This typically leads to many mis-interpretations of how a specific rule should be used, or even contradictory wordings of the same rules in the same book. As a GM just begin keeping a 'house rule' folder that holds a reference to the original rule (book, page number, etc) and then the house rule that replaces it. Then you can just copy this and present it to new players.
Abstruse
Don't feel discouraged. Hell, I've been playing Shadowrun for about a decade now and even I still have rules questions. The best thing to do is to take it one section at a time. Even if you're on your own, just make a few NPC samurai and keep doing combat until you know the combat rules well. Then add in magic, then a rigger, then a decker, or whatever order you feel like. Don't move on to something else until you're comfortable with eat other stage.

The Abstruse One
Mystery Mantis
good stuff, most of you...
can't avoid people not contributing though, i mean, after all, this is the internet (whatever the hell that means).
But jsut so we are clear, i am not really the one have the trouble with the game. Unless you count GMing it for groups of people who have no desire to continue reading a book that is not very well organized. It gets frustrating for them, and then i have the headache of explaining it all back to them.
See, i am already doing all the things. I have the self-written guide full of technical written instructions (that no one wants to read but still helps me when the stuff comes up). I have the screen and we almost exclusively use only the core rule book. I must admit, i never wrote in the book...but i can try it! And i do the whole "we will do it like this for now" a little more than i am liking (they grab hold of the temporary solution and then they want to do it like that all the time and it kind of becomes like court law and it gets anoying like a run on sentence). anyways, my point is, we should have to go through as much as we do. I hate to reference another game, *ducks and covers* but we got the new DnD. The book is very organized, and it seems like we aren't looking up that much anyomore. But in shadowrun, it is kind of like pulling shark teeth. It's not so bad (if the shark is dead or heavily sedated), but they always grow back (unless its dead, then, well never mind.)
Oh well, i really was jsut asking if there was any plans for maybe a newer version of the book with a better layout. Becuase really, why should people have to go through the whole mess we do, repeatedly, to play (although i do think it proves SR players are the most dedicated to their game, since we really have to buck down and all that jazz.)
Well, thanks for the Feedback chummers, as those crazy kids say these days.
Oh yeah, this Forum has to be in character? I thought that was the lounge, or have i been tricked by Mr Johnson again? That Frag face, he is always pulling his little jokes, though I am not sure why... rotate.gif
Mystery Mantis
the in character thing, i get it now...
it was an accident. my bad, sorry aboot that. and all.
frown.gif
Synner
Again, spaces between paragraphs are your friends. They also make your texts easier to read and understand for the rest of us.

Anyway, I think you'll find that most of us don't have many complaints about the organization of the core book as much as we have problems with small finnicky details (such as the writeups of individual spells or the way a certain skill functions). However you (or your players) seem to be having problems with some of the big stuff.

If you're already doing most of what we pointed out, let's take some of the problems you pointed out above and see how we can help you:

a) Melee Combat
Covers two different things, Unarmed and Armed Combat, that work exactly the same way most of the time. The system is really quite simple and is completely detailed on SR3 page 122 under Resolving Melee Combat. If you can identify specific problems with this we can address those (personally I can see you having trouble with such things as "defender's counterattack" and "range modifiers" but I prefer to hear what the problems actually are)

b) Fetishes
I'm unsure what your problem is here. Fetishes are explained in detail on page 180 SR3. They're a crutch some magicians use, they chose to limit their spell casting ability in exchange for reductions in Drain or the difficulty in learning new spells by making the fetish something mandatory to that spell (ie. I learn Powerbolt with a Fetish limitation - I pick a wand as my fetish for instance - and from then on if the wand is not in contact with my body I can't use the spell). Do you mean your players don't know what type of object a fetish can be? A crow's feather, a magical wand, a ring, a piercing, anything that qualifies as a reusable object will do (ie. a candle does not because it burns away).
Fetishes unlike Foci don't add dice to any ability, skill or pool.
This is explained in detail and unambiguously on the abovementioned page. If you still have problems with this please ask.

c) Cyberware
I don't know how anyone can have a problem with this but here goes anyway. Tell your players that aside from the money cost Cyberware also has an Essence cost and that they only have 6 Essence points to spend. The Essence cost is listed on the same charts as the price of the item and in fact the columns are right next to each other so there should be no way they can miss it!

d) Gear descriptions
Gear is detailed, strangely enough, in the Street Gear section of SR3 starting on page 270. Each individual write up describes what the gear is and how it works, if they're not getting it it's because they're not reading it. If any information isn't described in the writeup it's a sure bet it's because the book assumes that you've actually read the preceeding chapters, and even if you haven't you can easily refer to the relevant chapter (Guns - Combat chapter, Magic equipment - Magic chapter, drones - Rigging chapter) using the Index at the back of the book.

I reiterate, if you have problems ask and we'll try to answer. Saying the book is vague doesn't help. Give us examples of this vagueness that has you searching through the book.
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