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Thanos007
There seems to be a growing disenchantment with the direction Shadowrun has been takeing over the last few years and most of it, from what I can tell from the posts here on DS, involves themeatic drift. That Shadowrun has drifted away from it's Cyber Punk roots.

I thought it would be good for everyone to discuss what they thought the thems of Cyber Punk were/are. Also so that I could make fun of everyone who posted plot elements and thought they were themes. smile.gif

So have at it. After the 1st couple of posts I'll chime in with my .02 nuyen.gif

Thanos
Garland
I think one of the main themes is that of the individual trying to make it in a world that's gotten far too complex for an individual to understand. Looking back at Neuromancer, Count Zero, etc. it's mostly about a little guy caught up in a conspiracy that it's almost too big too have all the pieces of. And interestingly, neither is particularly hopeless. Both main characters survive and end up better off than they were before. I think Shadowrun still supports this theme.
Paul
I think this question is doomed to cause a lot of heartache for you. It asks an opinion-theres not really much objectifying that. My dystopian future may be your Shadowrun lite. Maybe DV8's is your worst nightmare.

However-I'll try and play along!

I think a good theme for any good shadowrun game is the dystopian future with out hope. The players are a part of a world thats spiraling out of control-like a dead man getting his last drunk on, staggering through Compton with a white sheet on his head. (He will die soon. smile.gif )
Skeptical Clown
The main important cyberpunk themes:

1) The blurring of humanity and technology. Machinery becomes more human, humans become more machine-like. Technology was once seen as a force entirely under human control, but in cyberpunk, there is the realization that our collective knowledge has exceeded the capabilities of any one person. Technology is a force of its own, unleashed. Meanwhile, as technology becomes more integrated into people's lives, they become more machine-like themselves, even adapting it into their bodies.

2) The Information Age. Knowledge is the only thing of true value. Intellectual properties, ideas, consumer data, all are far more important than manufacturing. Power is often measured by technological prowess; the hacker is a symbol of a master of this new age.

3) Post-Nationalism. National identity is superceded by consumer culture. Faceless corporations rule the world, and national culture ultimately is meaningless. Those who rebel against this often turn to tribalism and subcultures to give themselves identity.

The antiheroes of cyberpunk embody all three elements. They are outside the system, rebels who slip through the cracks of the corporate authorities. They have vast technological prowess at their side. And they often themselves are augmented technologically; they blur the line between the human and the artificial. Sometimes willingly, sometimes not. As a result, however, they're often in conflict with their own nature. They're rebels for a righteous cause, but they might have already lost.
Ancient History
QUOTE
1) The blurring of humanity and technology.  Machinery becomes more human, humans become more machine-like.  Technology was once seen as a force entirely under human control, but in cyberpunk, there is the realization that our collective knowledge has exceeded the capabilities of any one person.  Technology is a force of its own, unleashed.  Meanwhile, as technology becomes more integrated into people's lives, they become more machine-like themselves, even adapting it into their bodies.


I'll argue the point with this one. In cyberpunk, technology becomes universal and omnipresent. Nature is very rarely a major factor in any cyberpunk work, the landscapes and settings all being a part of humankind's infrastructure. This complete enclosure and reliance on tech is part of the alienation that the characters in the books experience with their surroundings, just as the conscious acceptance and adaptation to specific environments is a characteristic of the same characters. Case and the Matrix, for example.

QUOTE
2) The Information Age.  Knowledge is the only thing of true value.  Intellectual properties, ideas, consumer data, all are far more important than manufacturing.  Power is often measured by technological prowess; the hacker is a symbol of a master of this new age.


In Cyberpunk, knowledge can literally become power. America is, right now, Post-Industrialist in places. But you could never ascend to cybernetic godhead or encode your mind into a computer. The process of becoming (or contacting) something greater or other than human requires tech to work; the Hacker is the symbol of the modern magician or priest. They have an understanding, or at least a desire, to enter another, immaterial world.

QUOTE
The antiheroes of cyberpunk embody all three elements.  They are outside the system, rebels who slip through the cracks of the corporate authorities.  They have vast technological prowess at their side.  And they often themselves are augmented technologically; they blur the line between the human and the artificial.  Sometimes willingly, sometimes not.  As a result, however, they're often in conflict with their own nature.  They're rebels for a righteous cause, but they might have already lost.


Eh. I've never seen a cyberpunk antihero (strictly speaking, an antihero is not someone that we would normally see as villainous as the star of the story--that is, an Antihero is Hector of Troy, not Robin Hood.) I'd hesitate to imply "the System" and "righteous cause" to any cyberpunk (accept 'The Matrix'). The characters are necessairilly on the edge of things, but the world is so broken into smaller vistas and communities that this is almost entirely relative. Applying the term righteous to any Cyberpunk philosophy is rather hypocritical; most of Cyberpunk moralities consist of a series of grays shaded to black for the truly amoral bastards.

An important element in Cyberpunk is the accretion of disparate elements--things that you might not associate together but which "click" and accomplish things.
Thanos007
Damn. Points for Skeptic and AH. What I've gotten from Cyber Punk is alienation and questions about what it means to be human. What is a human? How far can you stray from the base line (biologically) and still be human? Also as we loose our humanity we loose our humainess. A domineering society/system that keeps people in check with tech. Mostly information tech. It is also in the society/system's best interest to keep these people alienated and cowed. Most of the stories I've read deal with people who live on the edge of such societies/systems or who have slipped through the cracks.

I hope this thread goes for a few days before we beat it to death because I'd like to build some sort of consensus for the next thread.

Thanos

Skeptical Clown
I kind of went with the assumption that morality in cyberpunk is heavily skewed. The essential struggle isn't between good and bad, but between humanity and technology. The protaganists of cyberpunk struggle on behalf of the human, even though the human is often dirty, profane, and imperfect. Even someone we might consider a bad guy.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Thanos007)
Also so that I could make fun of everyone who posted plot elements and thought they were themes. smile.gif

Nice to see you're taking an interest in this as dispassionately as possible.

Black Isis
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
I kind of went with the assumption that morality in cyberpunk is heavily skewed. The essential struggle isn't between good and bad, but between humanity and technology. The protaganists of cyberpunk struggle on behalf of the human, even though the human is often dirty, profane, and imperfect. Even someone we might consider a bad guy.

I'm curious where you get that from exactly; Neuromancer certainly is exactly the opposite. Case is struggling for two monstrously powerful AIs (or being used by one, at the very least), and isn't really trying to do any more than get his life back (which is completely in shambles at the beginning of the story).

The classic cyberpunk motif seems to be people living outside of normal society for one reason or another, trying to make their way and being caught up in the machinations of things they don't fully understand (or at least, not until the end of the story). Technology is pervasive, everyone has to deal with it, in one way or another, but it's not always about the technology, per se. It's about the people, and how they deal with it, what they do with it, and where it goes by itself. Cyberpunk has a lot in common with the noir genre, probably more than other science fiction actually. Morality and ethics are muddled -- most characters are just doing what they have to in order to get by, but I don't know any cyberpunk protagonist who has ever really struck me as "evil" or psychopathic. They are usually at least sympathetic -- unlike some RPG campaigns I've played in, very few cyberpunk protagonists are human killing machines that give no thought to killing someone in cold blood (which isn't to say they don't do it, just that they at least realize what it is they are doing and consider it a necessity).

Cyberpunk is a genre, and stories within it can explore a zillion different themes within that genre, but there isn't just one or two themes that are "cyberpunk". Sure, you can have a cyberpunk universe where corporations are all that matters and nationality is meaningless. But you can have cyberpunk where nations are still important, and the protagonist is dealing with an oppressive police state (I'd certainly qualify Minority Report, the short story and the movie, as cyberpunk). You can have cyberpunk where the question is what it means to be human -- but you can have cyberpunk where that isn't a theme (I'll cite Minority Report again, but there's plenty of other examples too). Both of these are certainly valid themes, but just because they aren't there doesn't mean it's not cyberpunk.
Adam
QUOTE (Thanos007)
I hope this thread goes for a few days before we beat it to death because I'd like to build some sort of consensus for the next thread.

Any room in this thread for making fun of people who don't understand the difference between "lose" and "loose"? wink.gif
Thanos007
QUOTE
QUOTE (Thanos007)
Also so that I could make fun of everyone who posted plot elements and thought they were themes. 


Nice to see you're taking an interest in this as dispassionately as possible.


Hence the smiley. In other words I was just kidding.

QUOTE
Any room in this thread for making fun of people who don't understand the difference between "lose" and "loose"?


Sure. Just to be clear I do understand the difference but spelling isn't' my bag baby.
Thank God for spell check. Too bad it doesn't understand context yet.

Thanos

[EDIT] I guess I should have used the winky instead of the smiley
Skeptical Clown
To be honest, there's some justified conflict in literary criticism as to whether cyberpunk IS an actual genre, or just an affectation. Honestly, I'm not sure Cyberpunk ever had anything particularly deep to say; the themes already brought up aren't really unique to cyberpunk. They're kind of natural sciene-fiction themes. It was the blend of science fiction, noir, and pop culture that made cyberpunk memorable, and those are really more stylish than meaningful. I don't know that that's bad though; it's a very cool construct all the same.
Ancient History
Sure. I mean, Kurt Vonnegut wrote sci-fi but I'd never call his work Cyberpunk.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Britannica.com)
Cyberpunk
a science-fiction subgenre characterized by countercultural antiheroes trapped in a dehumanized, high-tech future.

The anti-hero is, very much, a core part of cyberpunk, for many reasons. The anti-hero is simply a character which lacks those qualities which are normally associated with a hero. He might be a criminal. He might be cowardly. He might be incompotent. He's a protagonist, but not a hero (non-CP anaolgy, Vic Mackey from The Shield).

One of the major themes I see in cyberpunk literature is the dehumanizaiton of people in general, whether through crushing poverty, a simple lack of morality, or cyberware and the like. The protagonist often has to bargain away a part of himself in order to gain power, whether Johnny Mnemonic and his loss of childhood memories, Sarah's implanted cybernetic killing machine that almost suffocates her when she uses it, or Marid Audran and his beserker moddie.

Sometimes there's also a theme of revolution to counteract the oppression (all three of the stories I list above have it), but sometimes not. Some interesting bits from a FAQ floating around out there. Their take is that cyberpunk can be broken down into the "cyber" and the "punk".

Since most cyberpunk includes a societal oppressive force which makes people into a part of it (often with their own bodies, collectively becoming the "machine") this accounts for the "cyber" aspect. Since the genre seems to focus on the edgerunners and fringers of society, it has a "punk" aspect. Anyway, that site spells that part out better wink.gif
Ancient History
<display_frown> It was always my understanding that from a literary perspective, an antihero was simply a hero on the other side of the story; as opposed to an actual amoral villain or central character.
tjn
That's an antagonist.

Protagonist is the main character, and hero or anti-hero are variants thereof.
Siege
Literary terms

Not the best format I've ever seen for a website, but the best definition I've seen in the two minutes I spent looking.

-Siege
Ancient History
Hrm. Well, Hell, looks like I'm wrong. <shrugs>
FXcalibur
Not to threadjack, but lately I've been hearing talk about a genre called Post-Cyberpunk (books such as THS and upcoming Ex Machine, I *think*). Can anyone elaborate, and how is it different from 'regular' cyberpunk?
Connor
Notes on post-cyberpunk for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcyberpunk

I don't really think of Cyberpunk as a defined set of themes. I see it more as a stylistic device. Within the framework you can explore just about any theme you want to. I do think the themes of humanity, morality, and technology are forefront in the genre however.
Adam
Much of the content in Ex Machina is post-cyberpunk in theme. I haven't had chance to read all of it thoroughly yet, but I did skim bits and pieces while indexing it this week, and it looks mighty cool.
Thanos007
Post Cyberpunk seems to be plain ol' SF. There are lots of SF books that aren't space opera and deal with the near future in positive terms. In fact now that I think about it Post Cyberpunk is a throw back to the golden age of SF. People taking an interest in technology and seeing how it can help them help society. Keep in mind this is all based on the definition from the link supplied by Connor.

Thanos
MooCow
QUOTE
<display_frown> It was always my understanding that from a literary perspective, an antihero was simply a hero on the other side of the story; as opposed to an actual amoral villain or central character.


Just to supplement Siege's link. Wikipedia's Anti-Hero deffinition

Interesting topic. Thanks Thanos.
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