Greetings.
If (or, since) CyberPunk is a major theme in SR, what thematic role does magic-and to a lesser extent, the presence of fantasy races and species-play?
Is magic meant as a great equalizer in a dystopian world run by faceless, ultra-powerful megacorps? Are the fantasy creatures a symbol of the durability of man's dreams and imagination-surviving despite adversity, perhaps thriving because of it?
I don't know. I think ShadowRun is one of the freshest (even at this late date in the game's lifespan), most versatile ideas in Fantasy, let alone RPGs (along the lines of Doctor Who-what a concept!). If you want Gritty, it's there. If you want High Fantasy, it's there. If you want Hi-Tech, it's there. Awesome. I think the creators were/are brilliant. The sourcebooks and modules are great reads on their own, let alone the quality and diversity of the novels.
I love the inclusion of magic. From many of the polls, I think most players use lots of magic in their games. Why is it so popular? How does it fit into the world-view?
Any input?
R
Full Version: Magic In SR
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| Why is it so popular? |
Largely due to the fact that it is, far and away, the most powerful thing in Shadowrun. Players seek power, period.
Remarkably enough, I think SR's magic/fantasy elements fit into a larger cyberpunk setting with remarkable ease. I don't know if this comment fits here better than in the general cyberpunk thread, but here goes:
Magic fits into the SR universe as its own world, with its own powerplayers, and its own rules. However, the fact remains that it is just one sphere of a very large, very complicated, distopian world. Magic is very much a tool for human advancement in SR, particularly as seen from the classic hermetic tradition. The fact remains, though, that it is only one of the tools a runner team, or corporate entity, or a secret cabal could use to accomplish its ends.
Magic allows the individual magician to shine (1% of the population and proud!), but such an individual point of light is quickly blotted out by the inhuman strength of organizations in the SR universe. Sure, an individual mage has power, and a coven of mages has more, but they'll be licked every time by a corporate force with satellite communications, well-trained security agents, and a little magical back-up of their own.
Magic neither makes nor breaks SR's cyberpunk feel. It just adds another dimension of complexity for characters to grapple with.
Magic fits into the SR universe as its own world, with its own powerplayers, and its own rules. However, the fact remains that it is just one sphere of a very large, very complicated, distopian world. Magic is very much a tool for human advancement in SR, particularly as seen from the classic hermetic tradition. The fact remains, though, that it is only one of the tools a runner team, or corporate entity, or a secret cabal could use to accomplish its ends.
Magic allows the individual magician to shine (1% of the population and proud!), but such an individual point of light is quickly blotted out by the inhuman strength of organizations in the SR universe. Sure, an individual mage has power, and a coven of mages has more, but they'll be licked every time by a corporate force with satellite communications, well-trained security agents, and a little magical back-up of their own.
Magic neither makes nor breaks SR's cyberpunk feel. It just adds another dimension of complexity for characters to grapple with.
| QUOTE |
| I love the inclusion of magic. From many of the polls, I think most players use lots of magic in their games. Why is it so popular? How does it fit into the world-view? |
Magic is a very personal form of power. The use of magic enhances the contrast of the individuality of the shadowrunner to the collective of the corporation. In the 2060 of SR the power of the corporation, which even more than governments acts as if it were a single will, so that individuals wills are lost within it, has been heightened with the development of megacorps. Similarly, the power of the individual has been increased through magic. Cybtertech can also be used to increase personal power, but it is developed by the megacorps, so there's less of a distinction.
Which is part of what makes shadowrunning appealing in the world of SR. It's the only way to achieve power and success without joining the collective.
As for why there's a lot of magic in people's game, the point that magic is more powerful than cybertech is also a big part of that. You don't have to be a munchkin to like having a powerful character.
And what's probably another big reason why there's magic in SR and it's popular: geeks and magic go together like geeks and pointed ears. And I use the term "geeks" without prejudice, and full acceptance that I belong to the group. It doesn't mean that we're not attractive, intelligent, sociable people who fit well into society (at least some of us
). And, taking nothing away from the SR writers, it's not like including magic in a rpg is a particularly original idea. Meshing it with cyberpunk is, and I think it works for the above reasons.
Magic seems pretty important to SR. Magic in the SR setting is pretty much the reason the SR setting was able to take place. I rather doubt the NAN would have occurred without magic.
I had some concerns that the year of the comet/surge stuff really hurt the SR setting. Made it more fuzzy-anime than cyberpunk. But since its possible to jetison the surge stuff if you really don't want it, it's not as bad.
I had some concerns that the year of the comet/surge stuff really hurt the SR setting. Made it more fuzzy-anime than cyberpunk. But since its possible to jetison the surge stuff if you really don't want it, it's not as bad.
I don't think magic renders SR a cyberpunk/fantasy game in anyway. SR's magic is based on all the same stuff that the rest of the gutter cyberpunk is as well. Hermetics that come as either megacorp super-elites, a class of citizen far "more equal" than the masses, shady occultists manipulating the world, talking about concepts and power "mere mundanes" could never understand or street mages, using their power to help their fellow down-rotten. Shamans, representing the calling of the city with urban totems, incarnations of the black metroplexes that awakened them, or wilderness totems, mother nature's last attempt at redeeming us. It's all how you play it.
In a way, the magic of Shadowrun just adds to the dystopian vision. It's just another commodity for corporations to use, and corp mages are only on the payroll as long as they toe the bottom line. Stand out too much, and those who cut the paychecks will come down on you in a hurry.
Then there's toxic magic, and blood magic. The return of Horrors. Wilderness becoming more and more dangerous, driving more people to the cities. Eco-terrorism on an insane scale in Amazonia.
I'm actually surprised magic isn't more tightly regulated in the UCAS.
Then there's toxic magic, and blood magic. The return of Horrors. Wilderness becoming more and more dangerous, driving more people to the cities. Eco-terrorism on an insane scale in Amazonia.
I'm actually surprised magic isn't more tightly regulated in the UCAS.
| QUOTE (Curugul) |
| Largely due to the fact that it is, far and away, the most powerful thing in Shadowrun. Players seek power, period. |
Magic has it's downside. It's called Karma. And you need metric drektons of the stuff to achieve that unbalanced state to which you refer.
To me, magic's main attraction is that it's not limited. You can't cram more then 5.99 essence worth of cyber (or 9 BioIndex) in a body under normal circumstances. There is a finite limit to the amount of ware one can use, and that limit's fairly easy to get to even for a starting character. But for a Mage, they can always learn another spell or initate once more, or make a new ally spirit, they just all require rather large outlays of karma.
The other reason that magic is popular is that 'ware has drawbacks. You have to rely on others to fix it, the healing and toxin modifiers to bio, and the social penalties of cyber (and any other penalties yer GM wishes to toss on for loosing a part of one's soul).
Getting to the topic...
Personally I don't see magic as a theme by itself. Rather it's a tool to exploit the exploration of other themes not immeadiatly available to a cyberpunk styled setting. It's about fusion.
I prefer to see it as fantasy that conforms to a cyberpunk motif, rather than the other way around. The dragons of SR fit fairly comfortably into the amoral world of corporations.
I see it as dark and gritty that happens to have magic... which sure as hell doesn't make it any more less dark and gritty. It does even more separate the haves from the have nots though.
On the topic of the mythical races probably the biggest thing they do to the Shadowrun setting is adjust racism. Any cyberpunk without them may still have a fair amount of racism involved, though traditionally because it is cyberpunk the heroes ideally are not themselves racist, this coming from them being on the fringe of society, moreso they will be against the mainstream, not their fellow fringers. With the inclusion of the mythical races our present color-racism is replaced by shape-racism, the example that comes to mind from Shadowrun is Japan's exile of the non-human metahumans. I think this is such a pervading concept that alot of shadowrun players will design a character and only think of the race as being dwarf, elf, human, ork or troll, overlooking that these races can also have our modern ethnicities.
What BitBasher and Skeptical Clown said. The interesting thing here, so far, is there seams to be a general consensus and no real controversy regarding magic like there is the cyberpunk element. Why is that I wonder? That last question is not meant to be sarcastic. This thread and that question have reflections on the cyberpunk thread.
Thanos
Thanos
Its tough to pin down. I think, to some degree, we've had a chance to see or read versions of cyberpunk without magic. The addition of magic to the mix, in my opinion, is pretty unique to the SR setting. I remember my first impressions back with 1st edition. Oooh Cyberpunk with elves! (Without sarcasm. When SR first came out I was young enough not to be sarcastic about that)
I like Skeptical Clown's thought on the mix. It probably is easier to take because on some level we treat SR as fantasy + cyberpunk trappings, not cyberpunk + fantasy magic. Its wierd since you'd think those would be equal, but it seems its not.
I like Skeptical Clown's thought on the mix. It probably is easier to take because on some level we treat SR as fantasy + cyberpunk trappings, not cyberpunk + fantasy magic. Its wierd since you'd think those would be equal, but it seems its not.
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| The interesting thing here, so far, is there seams to be a general consensus and no real controversy regarding magic like there is the cyberpunk element. Why is that I wonder? That last question is not meant to be sarcastic. This thread and that question have reflections on the cyberpunk thread. |
The difference between cyberpunk and magic is that cyberpunk is just a theme while magic is tangible concept with no theme of its own. Or more correctly, that it becomes part of the theme in general.
It's like wondering why cyberpunk is "controversial" but vehicles aren't. They're completely different things.
Now comparing cyberpunk and fantasy, that's something else entirely.
Dr. F an excellent diagnosis.
Thanos
Thanos
We all make valid points here. Dr. F's point is one I had not considered, but applicable. Voran's view was also mine when I first picked up SR 1st edition.
I was still reeling from my AD&D burnout, and having just discovered the sci-fi genre of CyberPunk (with, of course, Neuromancer), I was looking at a rack of RPGs at a gamning shop when my eyes fel upon the 1st flyer for FASA's SR game. I flipped through a handy copy of the main rules & something caught my attention. The Magic rules showed a penalty for miscast or fouled spells. :O In my experience (at that time) this was unheard of! I plunked down the cash & fairly devoured the book. It's been a love/distaste affair ever since.
And yes, I did have a look at the CyberPunk RPG. There were no sparks. No attention-getting hooks for me. Oh well.
Magic itself is a tool, and while it makes a player character powerful indeed, there are costs. Power is not without it's price. Drain, failure rolls, interruptions, addiction, ect. can complicate things. In the final analysis, it is a part of the grander story.
I was still reeling from my AD&D burnout, and having just discovered the sci-fi genre of CyberPunk (with, of course, Neuromancer), I was looking at a rack of RPGs at a gamning shop when my eyes fel upon the 1st flyer for FASA's SR game. I flipped through a handy copy of the main rules & something caught my attention. The Magic rules showed a penalty for miscast or fouled spells. :O In my experience (at that time) this was unheard of! I plunked down the cash & fairly devoured the book. It's been a love/distaste affair ever since.
And yes, I did have a look at the CyberPunk RPG. There were no sparks. No attention-getting hooks for me. Oh well.
Magic itself is a tool, and while it makes a player character powerful indeed, there are costs. Power is not without it's price. Drain, failure rolls, interruptions, addiction, ect. can complicate things. In the final analysis, it is a part of the grander story.
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