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KillaJ
One of the things that has been coming up consistently lately is a desire to see a grittier environment. I agree 100%, but the question of what a grittier environment would be like is (seemingly) rarely addressed. I am very curious as to what specifically you think the writers should do to give the game more grit. Here is what I would like to see.

Lone Star
Lazy, crooked, racist, underfunded, undermanned and with almost no one looking over their shoulders to make sure they are doing their jobs. I like the idea of the star abandoning certain areas of town and brutalizing the SINless. A bloated beauracracy unconcerned with fighting crime and focusing their efforts on maximizing profits.

The Corps
I tend to think of the corps as being (for lack of a better term) untouchable. I like the idea of them as having once been ambitious and bold but now that they are so deeply entrenched becoming complacent and relying on their massive resources to quash any upstart companies rather than sound business principles. They should control virtually all media and broadcast little other than propaganda and I like everybody knowing that it is all bullshit but having no real alternative. I dont like the thought of regular citizens (or even national governments) having any sort of legal recourse against them. The corps should be the system and it should be in place to uphold the status quo. Someone else (cant remember who sorry) said it very well someplace else when they described them as being like Walmart, but more(!) callous and concerned with nothing but the bottom line.

National Governments
Existing only because the corps allow them to and only to mop up the corps messes. Crooked from the top to the bottom and up to their necks in organized crime.

Wage Slaves
Every waking minute they would be bombarded with subliminal messages from their parent corp. No dissention tolerated and constantly under surveillance from "sleepers" lurking in their department. Treated shabbily by their employer but what is the alternative? Corp A should be just as bad as Corp B. Terrified of losing their comparatively comfortable life so they keep their mouths shut and their nose to the grindstone.

SINless
Allowed to exist soley in the barrens and similar locales. Second class citizen in every sense of the word. I like them not having any real rights and the ones they do have frequently tossed aside by whomever decides it is more convienent to do so. In spite of all this I think that in some ways they have it slightly better then the wageslaves as they are largely ignored and are at least allowed to go about their business as they see fit.

Runners
I like to think that most runners are not the super criminals that they are portrayed as, but more like real people who are frequently involved in shit that they would rather not be but forced by cirumstances to take the insane risks that many runs entail.

There is a lot of areas I didnt cover and alot of what I want is already in the game but I think that it is clear what I look for in a "gritty" game. Now I want to know what you guys think of when you say gritty. Are my views way too over the top? Sound like candyland compared to your version of the sixth world? Enlighten me.
Skeptical Clown
Basically. I think the point of the SINless, though, is that governments have neither the power nor the inclination to register all these poor people. A lot of identities were probably completely lost in the Crash and the UCAS unification, and there's just no ability to really represent the majority of people anymore. And in return, the disenfranchised don't trust the government to protect them anyway.
Dashifen
I don't see Long Star as corrupt as you put them above. I've always concidered that they're a business and if the business were as lackadaisical as you put it above, then I can't imagine any corp or city continuing LS's contract. With other security options out there, why would anyone use a company that was as bad as you painted it above.

I prefer to think of LS as a driven, competant police force. Granted, there are bad apples and many officers, especially at the low end of the hierarchy, are more than willing to leak news to the press for a little extra nuyen. But, in general, they're a relatively powerful and competant force. I've even considered the fact that officers might get a bonus (money, time off, whatever) for closing high profile cases. It is a business after all .....

The rest of the stuff is pretty close though you forgot to mentions that Dragons control it all grinbig.gif
toturi
I see LS and other security corps as corps, in that the bottomline is everything and everything has its price and only those that can afford security will be protected. If a crime is commited, they will put in a pro forma show and unless the criminal is stupid and commits a series of high proflie crimes or in a high security neighbourhood, they wouldn't do much of anything.

They might not be lazy or incompetent, just mercenary. And this concept I apply to all corps. Money/profit is the final word, all other considerations are secondary.

Governments are there simply because certain aspects of governance are unprofitable and the corps cannot be bothered to deal with all those SINless that have little commercial value.
Red Swami
I also like the idea of corps basically being organized crime that's gone through the paperwork to become legal ("paperwork" in denominations of 1,000, 10,000, and higher). I mean, we can't forget about the organized crime, can we?

When I think of "grit," I think of more street-level, hacked-together contraptions than any sort of distopian future--although the distopian idea certainly makes it easy to have that junk-laden, pieced-together feel. For examples of what I'm imagining, think of all the shanty-dwelling "consumers" in Max Headroom, or the desolate apartments and desperate salespeople hawking junk in Bladerunner.

I actually don't like to have a completely evil "ruling class," (i.e. corps, government, and organized crime) because then it's too easy for the game to become about us vs. them--if the players know that everyone in a position of power is evil, they don't have to make morality calls or doubt that what they're doing is less than totally reprehensible: they just have to go in, shoot everything up, and leave (or alternately, for the more malevolent players, sign a long-term contract with Evil, Inc.). If there are some good people in high places, however, it shows that the world isn't totally corrupt, that there's a glimmer of hope, but there's still the opression of the fact that the evil corporations are triumphing. The PCs (well, the good-hearted ones, anyway) will think more carefully about whether they really want to bomb that building with the 400 wage-slaves in it just to assassinate the CEO.

But then, I prefer more morality-based gaming anyway. Any fool can throw a Panther cannon charge at a player--they'll soak it or Hand of God and walk away from the session knowing not to tangle with the military. As a GM, though, I consider my job to truly be accomplished when my players lie awake at night agonizing over whether they should have geeked that secretary who hit the alarm and what it would have changed.
RangerJoe
Grit is about ambience. It's about GMs creating a setting in which affairs are seldom as they seem. It's about toxic acid rain, and featureless corporate towers. It's about problems being tougher than they should be, just becasue life is often tougher than it should be.

Some of the sourcebooks are adept at portraying this feeling. I was just reading through Smuggler Havens the other day. Grit is about the casual mentioning of metahuman slavery, organ-legging, murder, and abduction. When, without cracking a smile, your characters agree to transport a human head in a jar somewhere, just because they're going that direction and there's a few hundred nuyen in it, that's grit.

Of course, grit extends from the streets to the upperclasses. Any time your players pause, suppress a gag or a sigh or any other sign of balking, and then in character agree to do someone's dirty work, becuase, hey, that's the way the world is these days, that's grit.
BitBasher
Grit is NOT about corruption or greed, grit is not about Corps, Police, Wageslaves, Sinless or Shadowruns. Grit can exist without any of those things, although those things can work just fine. Grit is a function of how the game is run, not it's component parts. Grit is not power or karma level (although high levels can make it harder).

Lone Star can be a non-corrupt shining beacon of goodness and still be used in a gritty fashion. See the movie HEAT for reference. The cops were not corrupt, they were somewhat altruistic and determined, but it was still gritty because they represented a determined unwavering threat to the central characters. Grit is atmosphere. It's the way the story is told.

Grit is in the description. Grit is in the feel. Technology does not affect grit, technology is just a tool. SURGE does not effect grit, SURGE is just a fraction of the environment.

Grit is an unwavering resolve on the part of the GM for there to be consequences for actions without arbitrarily making decisions. Grit is players legitimately believing there characters will die and the GM will not save them. If there is no real threat, there is little chance for grit.

Ever fudge dice to save a player (or an NPC)? You just removed the feeling of real threat and danger, and reduced the grit level. Grit is the fear of death. Ever make essence regenerate? You just eliminated consequences of their actions and made the game's decisions less final. Grit is finality. As a GM be aware of the consequences of your actions.

Grit is 99.9% the way the GM runs the game. That's it. IMHO most players and games that want gritty are not willing to play the game in a fashion that makes that happen. Little things can make a big difference in the game's atmosphere.
Method
QUOTE (toturi)
...all those SINless that have little commercial value.


Actually if you consider that most people with SINs are attached to one corp or another (and are therefore required to purchase that corps goods) the SINless represent a very large market segment to be exploited.

The fact that they have no rights and no legal recourse when the corps rip them off is just iceing on the cake.

I think the corps need the SINless. They are the "unwashed [consumer] masses".
RangerJoe
About the SINed/SINless debate. I'm not sure that the SINless are as large a consuming mass as the mainstream SINed. The way I've always gotten a feel for it is by assuming that folks with SINs can buy real candy, whereas folks without SINs buy cheap knock-off's.

You want to know grit? It's cheap knock-off candy, man.
BitBasher
QUOTE
The fact that they have no rights and no legal recourse when the corps rip them off is just iceing on the cake.


Sinless have rights. They are probationary citizens. They are just not afforded the full rights of a citizen with a SIN.
Method
QUOTE (RangerJoe)

You want to know grit? It's cheap knock-off candy, man.

What could be grittier?

Except maybe knock-off candy with dirt in it... lick.gif
GrinderTheTroll
Nice KillaJ, that's how I like to play my SR world, I guess my only minor difference is that the runners are only along for the ride. They can be as dirty or clean as they want, but it always seems to come back and haunt them...

muhuwawa vegm.gif
Thanos007
QUOTE
QUOTE (RangerJoe)

You want to know grit? It's cheap knock-off candy, man. 


What could be grittier?

Except maybe knock-off candy with dirt in it... 


You have to pay extra for dirt.

QUOTE
Grit is 99.9% the way the GM runs the game. That's it. IMHO most players and games that want gritty are not willing to play the game in a fashion that makes that happen. Little things can make a big difference in the game's atmosphere.


Amen brother. Amen.

Thanos
KillaJ
Thanks for the response guys, its nice to know what other folks think of when they imagine the sixth world. I knew I was going to get a little flak for my take on LS and for the record I dont think that anybody would hire those guys either but what can I say? I'm a sucker for corrupt cops.

RangerJoe, you have shattered my faith in humanity.
QUOTE (The Onion A.V. Club)
Food coloring is cheaper than food content, and brightly colored, sweetened lard can be molded into many interesting shapes for the delectation of the very-cheap-food crowd.

Chilling.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Method)
What could be grittier? 

A cheap Russian copy of a Chinese knock-off of American candy...

(With cancer-inducing food colors!)
cool.gif

(And advertised via subliminals in TV shows for children.)
BloodMagician
For some reason this entire talk about cheap candy reminds of me the Sean Cullen skit about the Irish James Bond villain filling the wool satellite with poor quality chocolates..........
Skeptical Clown
Corrupt cops CAN add to gritty flavor, but there's a much more practical reason to have Lone Star be mostly bad guys. It provides appropriate balance for the game. Despite the fact that Shadowrunners are criminals, they are also the protagonists. So while they don't have to be altruists, they have to have a certain amount of ethical superiority to their antagonists. Plus, if Lone Star is too competent then the game gets bogged down too much in taking precautions to really be much fun. We could spend an entire game wiping prints and trying to avoid leaving any trace of having ever been there, but that's not really much fun.

Individual cops will vary, of course. I"m sure a lot are authoritarians who are inflated on their own sense of power. Some believe they're doing the right thing, but the system is hopelessly skewed against them, leaving the more ethical members as idealistic fools and jaded cynics. And some are probably just corrupt and on the take.
Arethusa
Since when do protagonists have to possess ethical superiority to antagonists? What happened to antiheroes?
Thanos007
QUOTE
We could spend an entire game wiping prints and trying to avoid leaving any trace of having ever been there


You'd be surprised what gloves and a mask will do. Yeah you might leave trace DNA but they have to trace it to you. In fact you can leave as much evidence as you want just don't ever become a suspect.

Example: I randomly kill someone. I leave prints and DNA behind. If there are no witnesses and nothing to point to me as a suspect then all the evidence is useless until such time as I do become a suspect.

Thanos
krishcane
...or until such time as you register your biometrics with a police-cooperating corp or government entity. Why would you do that? Well, gee, do you want a bank account, a driver's license, a bus pass, a passport, a business license....?

--K
Skeptical Clown
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Since when do protagonists have to possess ethical superiority to antagonists? What happened to antiheroes?

Even an antihero is superior in his own way. You're rooting for the protagonist for SOME reason. Antiheroes usually aren't struggling against Mother Theresa, they're fighting someone who is even worse than they are. They're heroes absent most of the admirable qualities, but they are not villains.
Arethusa
I don't see what's stopping you from writing a story or playing a game in which the protagonists are not villains per se, but awful people, no better, and potentially worse than their antognists. It's not material for a casual game, perhaps, but that's another amtter entirely.
Skeptical Clown
Of course you can run a game of completely immoral people. But I don't think that's the overall theme of Shadowrun.
Dashifen
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
Of course you can run a game of completely immoral people. But I don't think that's the overall theme of Shadowrun.

It has been for a few players I've had to beat into submission sarcastic.gif
Lucyfersam
The characters don't necessarily have to have a "superior" ethical code to the antagonists (corps, police, whatever), just a different one. The people at the the tops of the corps aren't going to usually consider themselves bad people, they are going to think they are doing something good for humanity at large, i.e. creating a stable order and providing services to make the lives of the masses better. As far as the runners are concerned the price of this order and "comfortable life" is personal freedom, which they can't accept, and at least some of whom would believe that the wage slaves only do what they do because they don't know anything different. This situation has both sides thinking they are "good" but still being diametrically opposed and considering each other evil, corps will view runners as terrorists for hire, while runners will view corps as fascist bastards, but the only way to pay the bills. Both need the other to try to reach their goals, both hate each other and consider the other "evil," and both sides can be sympathized with to some degree. However, neither side can really be said to have "superior ethics."
BitBasher
All morals are relative.
Skeptical Clown
In most stories, you know who you are supposed to be the hero. A few stories, I'm sure, deliberately play with the line between protagonist and antagonist, but usually the conflict between the two is fairly obvious and distinct. That does NOT mean the hero is a saint; it just means that the hero is the one you are identifying with. Shadowrun has never really done any serious playing with that line; it's toyed with making certain powerful individuals philanthropic, but never very effectively.

Odin
QUOTE
In most stories, you know who you are supposed to be the hero. A few stories, I'm sure, deliberately play with the line between protagonist and antagonist, but usually the conflict between the two is fairly obvious and distinct. That does NOT mean the hero is a saint; it just means that the hero is the one you are identifying with. Shadowrun has never really done any serious playing with that line; it's toyed with making certain powerful individuals philanthropic, but never very effectively.


Well a facet of any non pathological individual's personality is generally going to justify a great number of things as the right thing to do heroic or not. Anyway none of the shadowrun fiction is really great fiction far too black and white and to be truly gritty their need to be more gray areas. Although I believe a skilled GM can provide all the needed grit. as to the last point do any of you believe you could be truly philanthropic if you had enough money that nothing was beyond your ability to access. That kind of capital just breeds perverse insanity look at Donald Trump,Bill Gates and Howard hughs they're all totally off their nut.
wayne62682
I'm only a Shadowrun newbie, but here's what I think the "gritty" atmosphere would be like:

Mood
The overall mood is one of depression. To put it bluntly, life sucks. Buildings are in disrepair because the governments have let themselves go to hell and have little to no real power anymore. The average person has an almost meaningless existance, with practically nothing to look forward to. The night life is abuzz because of this; people drown their sorrows at bars and clubs, since it lets them forget the dreariness of the day's work. The gangs nearly run rampant because of Lone Star's ethics (see below).

Lone Star
Lone Star isn't a shining beacon of protection, but mercenaries with a badge. If it's a high-paying neighborhood, they'll guard it like nobody's business. But the average area is lucky to have a patrol or two come by every couple of hours (and the officers there are usually rookies and/or under-equipped). If you don't have a lucrative contract, you're not getting much in the way of law enforcement. Because who cares? Most of the people in those areas are gutterscum anyways, so let them prey on each other, as long as decent citizens (i.e. the ones with more money) are kept safe.

Corporations
The corporations know that they're crooked, but don't really care because nobody can stop them. Their business ethics consist of "Get them before they get you" and "Milk them dry and then get rid of them", and would make Microsoft and Enron look like saints. Workers are just a statistic to use to increase overall revenue. If they don't turn a profit, get rid of them.

Just some of my thoughts... and probably completely wrong, but... smile.gif
Userlimit
I gotta say that I definately don't think grit is necessarily left up to the GM in Shadowrun any longer.

Really I think Shadowrun is only "cyberpunk" in name and find that the descriptions often don't really match up with some of the imagery given in the illustrations. Instead I see Shadowrun simply as a alternate future but definately not a dystopian one. It has it's problems, but so does the modern world. I feel that life for instance in Seattle is all too comfortable unless you live in one of the slummy areas. I see SR much as I see today except with more difference between the middle class and the poor. When I read the Sprawl Guide I get the definate impression of a pretty alright everyday existence for the everyday person, with pretty high security on the streets. To qualify as gritty or cyberpunk I don't really think people ought to be able to walk outside without feeling threatened, and I don't think the mass majority of the populace in a Shadowrun world feel this way.

What I don't get is why it needs to be gritty. Not that I would mind it being more so, but neither do I mind what Shadowrun has become, which is it's own genre.
Ol' Scratch
Exactly, Userlimit!

When I think of the Sixth World, I think of the atmosphere similar to the one found in The Fifth Element. It had megacorporations, repression, "barrens," megasprawls, metahuman races (in the form of aliens), and even high tech incorporated into the equivalence of a low lifestyle all at the same time. That's what I like to aim for when I'm GMing. Back to the Future II is a pretty good example, too, even if they didn't focus on it much. Hill Valley 2015 had a cybernetically-enhanced gang, and up-beat facade, and a dark, depressing neighborhood all at the same time. When they went back to the alternate 1985, they even had a good representation of a corporate-created barrens. Great inspirational material.

As far as I'm concerned, cyberpunk is a relic of the 80's and that's where I'd rather see it. The Sixth World isn't completely dystopian as a lot of people would have someone believe. The vast majority of it is quite upbeat and positive. Everyone with a Middle or higher Lifestyle is doing pretty frelling good, in fact. Sure, there's a lot of hellhole places out there filled with scumbags and other n'er-do-wells, but out of sight and out of mind -- that's the entire point of the barrens in the first place.

There are definitely cyberpunk elements in Shadowrun, but that's not the summation of the setting. It's just a fraction thereof, just like the upbeat corporate lifestyle is, as well as the tree-hugging Amerind aspects are, just as the magical conspiration aspects are, just as... etc.

If I wanted a game that was full of nothing but depression and misery, I... well, I just wouldn't want to play in a game like that at all. There's plenty of that in the real world to go around. When I indulge in escapism, I want to have fun, not get depressed.

So boo on a grittier atmosphere.
BitBasher
I agree with Doc Funk here, Gritty isn;t the entire world, nor does it have to be. For a gampaign to be gritty all there has to be is that atmosphere in the players world. It makes their world so much darker seeing those who have a happy life like they can't or won't. Contrast is a powerful thing.

Watching a wedding party across the street from the alley in which a drop goes down, seeing happy people acting out their lives. Couples in the park, kids playing contrasted against the characters lifestyle that prevents such things from really happening. Knowing that they made the choices to be where they are, or that fate has put them on the wrong side of the tracks.
Voran
QUOTE (Method)
QUOTE (RangerJoe @ Jul 29 2004, 11:05 AM)

You want to know grit? It's cheap knock-off candy, man.

What could be grittier?

Except maybe knock-off candy with dirt in it... lick.gif

Or stealing said knock off candy, from a baby. smile.gif
Voran
Seriously tho. I've used the first Robocop movie as a nice gritty template. Even to a degree Robocop #2, definately not number 3 though smile.gif

In a way, I think they made something of an error making the cops in Seattle a corp. Its easy to imagine the sourcebook material of Lone Star, easy to see them as cruel, mercenary, corrupt. Thusly its easier for your characters to screw with them or blow them away.

I imagine replacing the "cops" of Lone Star with the cops portrayed in Robocop, the detroit police who did their job, wanted to protect the peace, were basically hardworking, nice guys and gals. The thought of my character blowing one of those types of cops away, is much more unlikely. I think the drama comes in more when you can't simply use physical force to solve your problem. They'd still be trying to bust my character, forcing him to find alternate ways of skirting the law and defying authority without simply whacking the security guards/protectors.
Skeptical Clown
The thing is, in Shadowrun, Robocop isn't the protagonist. The Shadowrunners are. Hence, the name Shadowrun. And hence, why the cops don't need to be good guys (and shouldn't be.) It just doesn't fit the aesthetic.
wayne62682
Exactly. One of the biggest problems I have with Shadowrun is the fact that, at least in most of the games I've played, there's no real way to avoid getting LS after you, and once they are you're screwed. You can't gun the SOBs down or they'll come at you in full force. Trust me, I've done it. biggrin.gif

For me, part of SR is that since you're the protagonist, you can't always worry about covering your tracks or nothing will get done. The game should be about action and suspense, not executing the perfect, untraceable crime. If LS isn't partly corrupt and partly turns a blind eye to the goings on (for whatever reason), hen what's the point in executing the run since they'll find out and be after you? It's no fun playing when you know that you can't win in the end. Again, this is just my opinion from what's happened in the games I've played.
toturi
Sometimes it is that the vision of the GM that determines the course of the campaign and although it is stated that the players should have fun, the GM is trying to make the players have fun according to his vision and that stops all the fun and the GM runs back here and complains.
Arethusa
Is there some reason action and suspense must be mutually exclusive of professionalism and intelligent planning and tactics?
wayne62682
'Cause in my opinion if you spend most of the time planning for something without doing it, it's not fun. Maybe it's just a holdover from D&D, but I like action rather than planning. Not to say I rush blindly in-game, but IMO part of the atmosphere of Shadowrun is that you get away with doing criminal activities unless you do something incredibly stupid. If you always have to pause and remove evidence or whatnot so you can't be traced, where's the fun in that?
BitBasher
Saying "I pause to make sure I left any evidence" then rolling your forensic investigation knowledge skill and/or perception sure as hell doesn't bog down a game session in that 10 seconds. That's all it takes. Happens in my game all the time.
wayne62682
I'll have to try that sometime.. thanks biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Saying "I pause to make sure I left any evidence" then rolling your forensic investigation knowledge skill and/or perception sure as hell doesn't bog down a game session in that 10 seconds. That's all it takes. Happens in my game all the time.

Your players stop to intentionally leave behind evidence all the time? smile.gif
wayne62682
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Your players stop to intentionally leave behind evidence all the time? smile.gif

Maybe evidence that incriminates somebody else biggrin.gif
tjn
What Userlimit, Doc, and Bit (both times) said.

Also want to point out that while grit is a part of cyberpunk, cyberpunk is not a part of grit.

Deadlands is a prime example of this.

To me, grit involves the setting which is a bit bleak with grey morals, ambiguous motives, and where life is cheap. And that the characters are just jaded enough not to be bothered by that.

Until, as Bit said, the character on the stoop sees the wedding. Without that contrast, all the grit in the world is worthless.

Without the small light of hope, there are no shadows.

Edit to clairfy.
Arethusa
Basically, take it too far and beat hopelessness senselessly into your audience and you just get the opening scenes of Akira. You don't evoke despair and hopelessness so much as unintentional comedy.
Pelaka
To me the phrase that best defines cyberpunk/grit is, "a world that doesn't work." With some juggling this can fit very well in SR... the biggest issues would be that corps need to become less efficient.

Urban Landscape - Everything is run down. Zoning/rent control is out of control... so nobody invests in existing buildings. Likewise, new buildings are almost impossible. The local mega's arcology has been half done for 10 years now and is rusting... its been blocked for years by labor disputes, legal wrangling over pollution levels (that cross extraterritorial boundries) and budget cuts within the corp.

News Media - Reporting the truth is out... its not popular and will just get you in trouble. First, the mega owners don't like it. Then there was the Prenbook decision where it was decided that slander/libel protected not just individuals, but corps too. Organized crime tends to take out crusading reporters before they start covering crime... makes life alot easier that way. The government would never censor the news media... but anti-terrorism laws allow the government to proscecute reports that pass on classified data or that "encourage" terrorism.

Megas - We're extraterritorial, we don't have to make money anymore. Thats good, as most senior executives seem to be much more interested in building luxury corp enclaves they can play in. It used to be a CEO with nothing better to do would build a new corp headquarters... these days its pleasure palaces... why waste all that money on fancy offices for grunt workers. Essentially corps make money not by good business, but because they have legal monopolies. The main job of the corporate court is to parcel these monopolies out to the megas. Rarely do megas actually compete with each other.

Governments - Bloat, bloat, bloat.

Etc.

Even when a "mover and shaker" comes along that overthows a government (such as the Tirs) or breaks into the ranks of the megas... they quickly succumb to rot.

The big problem with this interretation is that SR portrays corps and especially dragons as being too aggressive and too interested in the bottom line. The problem with that is that these guys would keep trying to fix things, as the better things worked the more easily they could take money/market share from the deadweight.

Pel.
Synner
One thing I'd really like to understand is how people reconcile and explain the sammys and riggers packing 400k+ nuyen worth of gear and cyber in their games with this depressing, run-down, hopeless, barrens-style existance they're advocating.
Skeptical Clown
The problem with that logic is that grittiness doesn't make appeal to reality; it's an appeal to an aesthetic. It already involves a certain suspension of disbelief. It's the "More Realism!" types who should worry about that, since anyone who was normal and realistic would take that A in resources, buy a permanent medium lifestyle, and not be a shadowrunner.
Arethusa
Synner, they ignore it. For the most part, gear prices were never written to be sensible. They were written to balance the game or to finish copy in the middle of a night of binge drinking and uppers before tomorrow morning's deadline.
BitBasher
QUOTE
One thing I'd really like to understand is how people reconcile and explain the sammys and riggers packing 400k+ nuyen worth of gear and cyber in their games with this depressing, run-down, hopeless, barrens-style existance they're advocating.
Most people in that scenario are from corporate/military backgrounds that had a way to get serious discounts on the tech, and usually run the shadows for a soecific reason. I advocate gritty but only where the characters operate. My games are not run down hopeless barrens style existances, because you're right, that's a contradiction. My characters are professionals. beyond a certain level of competency cash is not within reason the main problem they make 15-35k each a run, and its very common that they may have multiple lifestyles with one more more at mid or high. They live a good life offset by the number of people that want to kill them or want them dead. They usually have a solid back figure for emergencies. This doesn;t change the fact that they can die, and they wil die, and I will not intervene to prevent that. It doesnt change the fact that they live in the shadows and that choices and actions have consequences. IMHO shadowrunners should get paid appropriately to the job or truly competent teams would never develop instead of looking for work with a more sane risk/reward ratio.

QUOTE
The problem with that logic is that grittiness doesn't make appeal to reality; it's an appeal to an aesthetic. It already involves a certain suspension of disbelief. It's the "More Realism!" types who should worry about that, since anyone who was normal and realistic would take that A in resources, buy a permanent medium lifestyle, and not be a shadowrunner.
I also generally accept that those A resource types never actually had that much cash. They bought things piecemail, by doing favors and taking markers. They also could just not have a personality that allows then to think long term to the future. Also "normal" and "realistic" among humans is a misnomer. Theres no such thing really.
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