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Mystery Mantis
do you have problems with massive overlap in your games? if i have a group of 4 players, i will have 3 guys that can shoot handguns as good as a starter can, can also pick a maglock equally well, and can ettiquette the hell out of each other, and verious other things.
even if i have them make chars together, and tell them to avoid overlap, they still make a char that is identical to another players. "Yo, is computers a good skill?" "Oh yeah, we should all take that."
then when a computer check comes up i got 3 guys arguing over who gets to make it.
how do i stop the maddness without making them angry!? its like, i want them to have a good character. i am trying to get creative, but the best i can think to do is tell them to change their skills becuase 'can see into their future" and then tell them what to take. i really don't want to make their characters for them, and i really do not like it when they get upset that only one of them gets to try to pick the lock (though i have been known to allow extra dice from the other guys, but only in certain cercumstances).
anyhoo, thought? comments? flames? *hides behind neighbors house*

They'll never frag me alive!
Backgammon
Uh... well, sounds like you are roll-playing rather than roleplaying. This is common (unavoidable, even) for people new to roleplaying, adn even more so for teens who are starting playing. You have to take your time. Make sure you put *ample* place in your game for freestyle roleplaying, things that do not require dice rolling. I've had entire sessions that required no dice roll at all (or nearly not). Slowly, this will force your players to have to think about the personality of their players, which will in turn guide their choices in skill chosing. It certainly something that happens overnight.
Sphynx
Or just don't worry about it. Seriously, people make what they want to play, if you have 3 exact copies, then they actually make a pretty decent team. It's your job as the GM to make it work, don't try to control the player and their characters, that makes it your game and not theirs.

Also, maybe just hand them character sheets and then kill them off after a few games, seperate from each other (in different gaming sessions), and have them make new characters with the karma they earned for their previous character (since you're killing them off intentionally). If they make characters seperately, you're not controlling their character and they're likely to see what strengths the group already has and work around it. If they still mirror each other, then just learn to adapt. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Kurukami
I haven't seen that problem quite as much as another -- the player who always plays the exact same kind of character, although race may vary. First the troll shaman (racial variant - Fomori) with a certain spread of spells, then a dwarf shaman (racial variant - Koborokuru) with the same spread of spells, and so forth and so on...

Oh, and he always, always, always, wears a security helmet disguised as a motorcycle helmet. sleepy.gif
Lucyfersam
If they all have the same skills, and at fairly high levels from the sounds of it, then there are probably important skills they're missing. Do they have a high drive skill? If not, a situation where being able to flee or chase in a vehicle would be the ideal solution could quickly show them it importance. Any hand to hand combat? Teams are usually made up of somewhat specialized people for a reason, a single character simply can not afford all of the important skills. While there are a few skills that everyone is likely to have at decent levels (some sort of firearms, stealth), the best way to show them diversification is important is to have situations where other skills or more specialized skill sets would be useful.
Another good option is to have another team, made up of more specialized characters, get wind of the run and try to beat the players to it. Being more specialized they will likely be able to do it faster without much difficulty, and it would do wonders to show the importance of diversified skills.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Kurukami)
I haven't seen that problem quite as much as another -- the player who always plays the exact same kind of character, although race may vary. First the troll shaman (racial variant - Fomori) with a certain spread of spells, then a dwarf shaman (racial variant - Koborokuru) with the same spread of spells, and so forth and so on...

Oh, and he always, always, always, wears a security helmet disguised as a motorcycle helmet. sleepy.gif

Uhm, what's the problem with that? Be glad you got a player who loves a character enough to keep resurrecting him. I can't imagine why you'd be upset about that.... I personally play a Quickening Freak, Raven Shaman with High Force Telekinetic spells, nearly everytime I play in a game. It's what I love, why do GMs have this urge to make you play something you wouldn't love as much? What the hell is wrong with just playing what you like??? So maybe he doesn't WANT to be as diversified as you can be, maybe he's happy, let's ruin that. nyahnyah.gif

The RPG known as Immortal brought out a rather interesting fact even. It stated that all Immortals are actually RPers trying to express their past lives, which is why all their characters have something in common they share. nyahnyah.gif In my logest lasting group we tested that and found it pretty accurate. One guy always had the most firepower possible, one was always a martial artist with tiger inclination, I was always telekinetic, one was always into mind control, and one always took as many sensory type powers/skills/attributes as possible.

Just an interesting thought. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Lucyfersam
@Sphynx

Heh, while I'm not much on past lives, I do firmly believe that your character is a representation of some part of you, as you can't really role-play something that is not within you. Some people try hard to deny this, but it has shown to be very accurate over the many years (although a friend of mine who once played a prostitute still objects to the theory to this day ;-}

On the other hand, people have multiple facets to there personality, so I do like to encourage players to try new things, although I don't force them to. I personally have played a wide array of characters, although there are still certain similarities among them. The only real problem I've ever had with someone playing the same character over and over is once when that character was bloody annoying, but at that point it is a strong reflection on the player...
Solidcobra
my 2 nuyen.gif
GM Railroading of a campaign is VERY bad and annoying, but something MUCH worse is crossing the extremely holy tabu that is the development and using of characters!
If you have crossed the line you are not a worthy human being anymore, nonetheless a GM, PLEASE don't give a damn about what the players do, as long as it is PERFECTLY legal it should be okay, right? Bending the rules is not okay, breaking the rules is not okay, making the same character over and over because you love the well developed personality he/she/it/whatever has SHOULD be okay as long as it ain't irritating to the whole team or it disrupts the balance (must.... resist..... can't..... resist....)
TEH HOLI BALANCE MAST B UPHELD!!!!!eleventyone!!afewones!!1!!!!111!!!afewmoreones!
anyhow..... you get my point, don't forbid a character because you don't like them doing the same characters, forbid characters when they disrupt teh holi balance or when they are worthless pieces of flesh (and i'm talking USELESS characters, the ones that no sane player would touch with a 10-ft pole because the skills sucks so badly)
RangerJoe
A good way to get a team to start thinking "balance" is to come up with a run for them that highlights (without penalizing) a specific area (one at a time... players aren't the sharpest tools sometimes...) that you, as a GM think they are lacking.

All it took was one suprisingly hard smash-and-grab on a poorly defended corp installation-- no fatalities on the team's part, and at least partial success-- for me, IC as the team tactics planner/sam -- to be adding "mage" to my IC wishlist.

Then again, sometimes you've got yourself a group of three sams, or three mages, or what have you-- better to spend energy coming up with tasks that require that kind of focus in skills (ever run three/four deckers on the same host? wiz.)
Mystery Mantis
Some of you understood what I was talking about, so I know that i could not have been to unlcear in what i said. but just to clarify further...
I was talking about an entire group that plays a character that has the same skills/cyber/attributes as everyone else in the group. It's often that i have 3 close combat experts, or shooting experts, or 3 mages.
example, take a character you have, zerox it twice, and then give the copies to 2 other palyers and then you have the trio-o-whatever char it is.
i oversee the creation of the characters, i don't railroad them like an "unfit human being". Any GM that doesn't double check a char is kind of asking for cheating players (i have 2 that ALWAYS are at least 20 gen points over the limit). Not to mention, my players don't really like the non-organization in the core books, and get confused a lot, so it saves me some time by jsut being there when they all make their character. (i already talked about this in another post, so please no replies based on the non-organization).
I don't really care when someone plays the exact same character over and over. what i am talking about is multiple people that all play the same character.

Just a little side note also, i was asking for suggestions on how to get my characters to mix it up a little bit to improve on the quality of our games. If I didn't care about that, then why would i even bother asking for some suggestions?

some good suggestions, but...
i don't want to just kill a char, jsut to get them to make a character that i want them to play. i'd rather they paly the character that makes them happy. but I do have them paly a pre-gen in the beginning, for about 1 or 2 sessions, to let them get used to the system. but i have to admit, they do tend to play a more individual character that is specialized more for the team.
I've done the whole runs-made-to-order for a group with no variety, like sams get the assasination/shake-down/extra-musscle style of runs, and mages get the ones that are about hunting down a free spirit, or joining a society of mages, and so on and so on. trouble is, both they and I get a little burned out on the limited amount of runs we can do. can't send a team of mages on a decker mission, unless i want them to jsut hire a decker. and then an NPC gets to do the big part of the run, and they just watch.
anyhoo, I just don't want to tell them not to take skills that they want, beucase they should paly what they want. but an electronics skill of 6 is pretty useless when 2 other people already have it.
and just my own thoughts on the playing of the same character over and over again, the stats and skills really shouldn't have as much to do with who the character is as the personality of how you play her.
hmmm, maybe instead of sayin "why did 3 of you take electronics 6, when each of you already knew someone else taking it," i can say "3 of you have electronics. why don't at least 2 of you specialize that skill further." that way they each have a roll. and that is what I really want, is that each person has a roll, other than what they bring to combat. and even then each person should have a roll in that.
think i might have jsut answered my own question. if you have more to offer though, go ahead and put it up. but if you are not going to add anything that is contributing, then at least be funny.
thanks for the feedback!
mantis, the non-hummie...
TinkerGnome
A simple suggestion, though a long term one. Whenever the PCs call their fixer for a job, let the fixer slip it in that there was a really juicy job of x type that he wanted to call them on, but they didn't have a x specialist on the team so he had to pass on it. But he did get this run which is only half as much pay for twice the risk.

And do it several times, all with different types of runs. They might all change their characters at once, but then "Oh, I wish you guys still ran with x and y, since that gig would've payed half a mil, easy..."

Teams I play on are usually pretty well balanced. There's usually a rigger/decker/techie, a mage or two, and a mix of samies and adepts. Everyone tends to go for a personal style, though, and we don't overlap beyond what you have to.
tisoz
I have never heard of the carbon copy team before. As GM, I would ridicule them for their lack of originality, or all deciding to play the same type character for the same campaign.

Maybe have them make up 3 different types of characters, you will probably end up with a set of 3 carbon copies of three different types instead of 9 different characters. Then have the players roll a die and the high roll gets to choose a character, then you remove its copies from the available characters and have the next highest roll choose, etc..

As I said, this situation has never occurred in my groups. Are they newbies? Most groups I have been in know they are better off with some specialization if they ever want to get a turn to shine.

Dash Panther
Evil: Make a lock very difficult to crack. Booby trap it so it blows up. See who wants to pick a lock first next time.
Artemus
I would suggest having them outline what it is they want their characters to do, as well as a background story - separately, and then sit with them and generate characters.

You could just talk the situation over with them, just sit them down and explain your frustation and ask for their opinion on how they wish to make the game better.

Phylos Fett
I use to have two players that would make identical characters, no matter what they were. I swear, one could come up with an Albino Troll Otaku, and the other would go "that's a great idea!" and follow suit...
Shadow
You know i was against this until I tried it, and it turned out to be one of the best campaigns I have ever ran.

Make 8 characters who are of a variety. Don't give them names because that is the domain of the player. But do everything else, right down to the history. Then let the players choose there character. You have to do a lot of work here, and not just in character creation. Your first couple of adventures should be designed to get the player familiar with what there character is and can do. After the initial three games you should be up and running like normal. Try it, I'll bet it will work.
Ancient History
I'm the GM (well, I used to be). They are the PCs. They may play whomever they want to play, within the very reasonable limits I set for them. If they want to repeat themselves, why not? I don't have a moral imperative to forcibly increase their horizons.
Johnny the Bull
An interesting idea for character generation that might bring a bit of diversity.

Sit everyone is a circle. Get each player to nominate a theme or feel that'll be present in the campaign. Bob may say "Hong Kong Blood opera". Alex may say "Personal tragedy". Jim may say "concrete jungle. Lesley may say "Underworld politics" Sally may say "paranoia". Then PC's decide on each other's characters. Start with whomever you want, I'll start with Bob. The other players decide one aspect of Bob's character. Jim may decide bob's character is female. Sally may decide Bob's character has a penchant for Hawaiian shirts. Alex may decide Bob's character has an obvious cyberarm. Lesley may decide Bob's character grew up in a Junk in Hong Kong harbour. Bob then builds the character around these decisions. Repeat for each character.

Thus you would have Bob building a character that is female that grew up in a Junk off Hong Kong harbour that wears hawaiian shirts and has an obvious cyberarm.

She'll be in a campaign that fits the Hong Kong blood opera genre stylistically, where the PC's are tied together through personal tragedies, perhaps brought on my the paranoid political machinations in the underworld that never sleeps that lies in the heart of the concrete jungles of the world's major cities.
Mystery Mantis
Tinker- pretty good suggestion. this might work since the team has a fixer they trust, and even though he had the chance to rat em out to the star, didn't. (i use paranioa as a GM tool, and boy was that one good campaign). might not always work, but if they get the idea, then it might not matter. (they are pretty thick though, so they might not).
tisoz, artemus, and johnny the bull- i already know they aren't interested in doing that much work for shadowrun. see, this is what they call our "second game" becuase we normally play DnD. Even though SR is WAY better, they kind of play it down since it is only the "second game" we play. knid of sux, since it kind of rest on my shoulders to constantly keep them interested. (not that i mind or nothing).
Panther and Phylos- Hey! you guys knew what i meant by "make it funny"! spin.gif talker.gif biggrin.gif
Ancient- No one is forcing anything here. I said orignally i wanted suggestions on how to avoid overlap. I said the second time around that this was to help improve the quality of the game. As a GM, you are not interested in that? No offense, but I feel sorry for your palyers becuase as the GM, you control a lot more of that than they do. (of course, i may have missunderstood what you meant when you said it, but then, you didn't really offer a suggestion either.)
Shadow- they hate playing a pregen. plus that kind of goes in with me not wanting to tell them what to do. in any other group maybe, but in a militant group of guys that are always 110% for or against, i know it won't work. (tried it to intro one of the players, he did nothing but bitch the whole time, and actaully cheered when the character died.)

lots of good suggestions, some good humor, i think i have an idea. I am going to try to just spell out as best i can in game, that overlap is retarded. "hey we all picked the hell out of that lock!" "what does it open?" "a lab" "anything good in there?" "what knowledge skills do you have?" then when they name off all the same skills, point out that if they would have taken a variety, one of them might have known something. maybe after hearing each other read the same skills as everone else, they might get the idea. then at the end of the session, give them the option to make a new character, or jsut change a few things. (i doubt they will get it, they are an extremely thick group. what will most likely happen is they will hear each others skill, go "i got that one too, but mine is a point higher." "oh yeah, well, my will power is 6!" "so is mine" "but do you have pistols 6?" "yeah, but i use smartlink 2." and that will go on forever...)
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