I have an interesting problem with cyberlimbs at the moment, but before we get started I know I can fix this with house rules, I am looking for other people opinions.

I was going through making a Street Fighting Ork Sam who excelled at unarmed combat. For style we decided to add two cyber arms, nice and obvious with lashings of chrome.
Now this ork had an adjusted strength of 8, realy good for pounding things with, but as soon as we put on the arms WAM! His arm strength drops to 6 (cyber arms made for orks have a strength of 6). Hmm, Ok. Strength enhancement, ahh 50,000 bucks a point, we need two points per arm...so...200,000 just to get his strength back to "normal". Damd.
A street sam? Lets crank the quickness. He has a quickness of 6, but his arms again have a quickness of 4 (what the?). Ok 30,000 bucks a point, gives me 120,000 to get both arms upto speed (don't forget the 10% because this is the second enhancement!!) so that takes me to 132,000.

332,000 just to get his CYBER arms upto what his NATURAL ones did anyway. And thsts not even including the cost of buying the arms (a piddly 75,000 each compared to the upgrade cost).

Now why are all cyberlimbs that are 'off the shelf' the same? I go to buy shoes and theres different sizes. Big ones cost the same as smaller ones even though they use more material.
What is to stop a human getting troll arms (apart from the fact that they would look strange, to say the least. Oh yeh and there shoulders would drop off) But troll arms cost the same as human arms even though they are stronger (like shoes I guess).

End of the day...why bother? (unless you were a strength 2 weed) Sure you can wack gadgets in 'em and they look cool, but after spending points at character creation to make a big beefy brick you then have to go back and spend half a mill just to get them opperation where THEY SHOULD BE without boosting above the characters abilities.

Hell I have cyberarms, can someone help me open this jar? The lid's stuck on too tight.

Start with Low strength and boost with Cyber. And if you were going for a melee ork, it might have been better if you used an adept. Oh, by the way, caveat emptor.

No one understands that which the game calls Cyberlimbs. The only thing they're good for is storage space and, if you really need it, armor. But storage space, built-in devices, and DNI-control are the only reasons I bother with one... and when I do, it's almost always just a Cyberhand or Cyberforearm. But for hired muscle? It's a total waste compared to other options.

It is sad, though, when faces (DNI-controlled pocket secretary), deckers/riggers (concealed decks), and otaku (DNI-controlled storage memory out the yin-yang) are the ones who gain the most advantage out of an item that thematically is supposed to be a combat junkie's dream.

Granted, adepts WROCK as hand to hand dudes, this is more of a style issue for the player. Have also just read the 'Remake of Cyberlimbs' post. Interesting.

However, I am after ideas on why this is the case (ie cyber limbs, while above average for the general population, SUCK compared to Shadowruners naturaly high abilities).

Beware geeks with cyberlimbs huh?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.

You can click on "My Controls" at the top of the page to create a Signature, Jonah, so you don't have to do the little --- line each time.

have cyberlimbs always sucked? i mean, was it like this in 1st and 2nd ed?

Cool, kinda new to the ol' Dumpshock. Great resource though.

oh yeh *hehe* I get it, buyer beware.

they seemed pretty good until "cybertechnology FASA7119" considering then they just started to cost obscene amounts of money and be half as effective. Before that they seemed to default to the attribute levels the runners had at purchase but in said book they introduced the rule that all cyber limbs started at average racial attribute levels..... the only reason I can see is to prevent someone from getting 4 cyberlimbs on a regular basis.

Could it possibley have to do with that Cyberarms are no longer designed (from and In-game IC perspective) as a Combat deathbeasts best friend but, much as they are being concieved IRL, as a replacement for normal limbs that get amputated or dmamaged beyound natural healing?. Just a thought.

The problem with that interpretation, Moirdryd, is that they are really far too expensive for that purpose. Someone who loses an arm can get a cloned/vat-grown limb replacement for a fraction of the cost of a cyberlimb.

If so they need to work harder to make it more practical. Despite the technology having been around for about 40 years, it's still more costly and less effective than a cloned replacement.

I had to HR cyberlimbs in my game -- the strength and quickness boosts are way way overpriced, by a factor of 10 in my opinion. After all, muscle replacement costs 20,000 nuyen per level, and even counting that muscle replacement also costs 1 full essence point per level, it's still a better deal than going with two cyberlimbs and buying the strength and quickness boosts.

As Doctor Funkenstein already stated, the best thing about cyberlimbs is the storage space -- best place to hide stuff, or put in weapons. Trouble is, without DNI (one of the worst things in Man & Machine, in my opinion), you're limited to having to use it manually. This makes no sense to me, as you've already paid for the limb connections to your brain; why not just piggyback the built-in devices on those connections?

Some of the best things to put into a cyberlimb:

• Personal Comm Unit (from Cannon Companion
• cybergun (never be left without a weapon again)
• personal secretary for writing down notes
• micro-recorder (no need to waste essence space in your ears)
• micro-camcorder (link to an image display, look around corners)
• electronics toolkit (for added style, declare the fingers are tool units)
• detonator for explosives
• any other electronic device -- bug scanner, maglock passkey, etc.

The idea of putting a PocSec in a beefed up cyber-arm just strikes me as amusing (no matter how useful). I just imagine the street sam shaking his right cyberarm, "I'd like you to meet my right hand man, Mr. Pain," and then his left, "and my left hand... well, she's called madam secretary."

Which just goes to show cyberlimbs as they are now are best used for game flavor, not game effect.

While talking to a player today I just realized something. Say you're a human with STR 8 and QUI 8 and you have to replace your arm. If you get a cyberarm, it's gonna cost maybe half a mil to get the same attributes. But if you get a cloned replacement, not only is it cheaper, but (IIRC) it automatically comes with the same attributes. Isn't that a bit odd?

You know, I`d forgotten about the cloned/vat grown replacement parts. Looking back on it it does look like they are only worth it when you`ve got some serious cred to throw about..of course if you have got the money i suppose you can create something really scary with those cyber limbs. Otherwise...not really worth the Y.

As a means of balancing cyber limbs versus vat-grown/cloned limbs, the Powers that Be (when they fix cyberlimb rules in general) might consider adding a ramping up time to vat-grown/cloned limbs. That is to say, when a slimy new cloned arm is sewn onto an unlucky street samuari, he might find that although his new arm can be as strong as his old arm, it's not yet (it's fresh out of the vat). One could then make a body test to see how long it would take for a new cloned limb to build itself back up to the level of its mate.

This would entice more PCs to opt for cyberlimbs-- perhaps they don't have the 6 months they need to build up muscle in their new limb.

I am drafting a very in-depth set of rules designed to replace existing rules for cyberlimbs completely. Preliminary rules are available on Shadowland, but the more recent, updated, fixed, and expanded version of the optional cyberlimb rules will be available when my Shadowrun website goes live.

I will be bringing the site online as soon as I'm able to really populate it with a decent amount of content. Right now, all that it features are links, a news page, and an unfinished copy of the cyberlimb rules. When the cyberlimb rules are complete, the new cyberware section is done, and maybe I've put up new edges and flaws, and some new adept powers, I'll consider the site live and start linking to it from my site's main page.

Until then, however, I'm not going to link it directly, as it should by no means be considered to be "live". It is in production at the moment.

That's true of cybernetic limbs, too. They basically take stress anytime a meat arm would (replacement or not). Actually, I think they take it more often but it's been a while since I've read up on those god-forsaken rules in M&M.

Regardless, I'm sure the vast majority of humanity (especially the poor) would rather wait 8 weeks for a replacement that only cost 25,000 nuyen over the 75,000 nuyen, 1/6th loss of your very essence, and social stigmata. Not to mention that you still have to wait at least 4 days to get the limb. 50,000 nuyen is enough for almost half a year of living the good life, afterall, so just chill out and enjoy life for those two months it takes for them to clone your replacement... it'd be significantly cheaper. Moreso if you're even remotely above average in the Strength or Quickness departments.

Except that if you wait, the average person is going to be hospitalized for 45 days at least while they wait for the thing to grow. That adds 45,000 to the price, or more if they don't have a high lifestyle (to heal from the Serious wound after the Deadly's done).

Why does it cost them more? Whatever wound caused them to lose their original meat arm will take just as long to heal prior to surgery regardless of whether its another meat arm or a cybernetic replacement and the surgery for both replacements will cause the same wound during their installation and healing time thereafter.

But they don't have to wait for the cybernetic replacement. If there is one on hand, it can be implanted directly after their trauma surgery. At most, they're going to wait 4 days. Healing time is the same, yes, but it's the time before that's the kicker.

Sidenote: Organic replacements do suffer stress, but it's up to the GM when stress points accrue, and when Stress Tests are necessary. So, that's going to be a toss up whether it's more of a problem with organic or cyber, depending on the game and GM.

with a cloned/vat arm, you still have to purchase all the implants again which you had in the old arm (common sense). I would rule that you have to buy muscle augmentation/tuner AGAIN with a cloned arm (of course at a fraction of the price). You wouldnt have that problem with a cyberarm.
I would also rule that you would be able to turn off the pain stimulators in a cyber arm, think I read that in the novel House of the Rising Sun once.
Eventhough expensive I can come up with numerous uses for a cyberarm aside from "just" storage space

A question i have, if you chose to not replace the arm at all, why do not lose essence.


*Oh look, worms.....*

Because while your physical body may have stuff missing, your spirit does not complain because you have attempted to replace "yourself" with foreign parts, even if they were grown from your DNA, it is not the original.

You don't lose Essence because the part is gone, you lose Essence because you've replaced it with something artificial. No worms necessary.

For everything to make sense, I would rule that a vatgrown limb comes out of the vat with the stats of a normal specimen of said species (since it is clonal, any edges&flaws/SURGe effects should be applied as well), or even possibly AT THE LOWEST value.

The character then had to rebuild the attributes of that limb using karma (at, say a quarter of the cost since all other parts do not have to be improved). Treat like the differing stats of cyberlimbs.

Varying Quickness will, of course, be difficult to handle - maybe just 'assume' that the movement training necessary takes 1 week per point to regain maximum quickness in this manner...

But there's no way I'd allow a Troll with unaugmented strength of 13 buy a clonal limb with the same strength. If he can find a second-hand limb with suitable strength and size, then yes.

Optional rule for different Quickness of different limbs - the actual quickness of a character is equal to the average of his 'normal' quickness and that of the slowest limb. (Note that if two or more limbs have the lower value, this is now the natural for all intents and purposes) If the legs have different quickness ratings, use the lowest rating for movement. If you feel really evil, penalize the character for limping all the time too. Reaction is always counted from the average, or the natural - whichever is lowest. Same goes for combat pool (Use lowest value for combat pool if you're an evil gm).

I simply decided that cloned parts start at racial average too and you have to exercise to build them up just like you did your original limb. Then, I cut the costs for cyberlimbs and enhancements in half, threw in DNI for free, and finally started to see some players use cyberlimbs.

The only time I've seen one of my players use a cyberlimb is when we were on the run, always watching our backs, and the only surgeon we could trust didn't have any vat-grown limbs (or the means to clone one) available. Add to that, we had a big run coming up in a month, and he broke down and got the thing.

I managed to come up with one decent character once who used Cyberlimbs for combat. Street Samurai with a chrome limb, attached two fixed mounts to it so they'd point where his gun hand did.

Each fixed mount had an SMG (And a third in the hand) with six points of assorted recoil comp on them. The hand fired gel rounds, the others EX-EX. All used Tracers so I could get 9 points of Recoil on 9 shots. Each pass an opponent had to resist something like 18D damage twice from the EX-EX and then another 16D stun (protected by impact rather than ballistic armor) after that. One pass would completely devour any opponent's combat pool trying to survive, and even against a massively boosted troll the combined stun and wound penalties usually meant +5-6 on all tests.

Then I learned the joys of Capsule rounds filled with Pepper punch. I'm looking forward to a game where fill all three and watch the opponent try vainly to stage down 16D 3 times, then have to resist 30M from the Pepper Punch with no armor allowed, and that's if the GM doesn't think taking 18 doses in less than 3 seconds constitutes OD'ing.

The character didn't engage in melee much so the strength didn't matter, and the speed augs weren't too killing in cost compared to the godawful storm of bullets he could put out.

It's amazing how much munchkin goodness you can do with house rules. But none of that has any bearing on anything resembling the rules, so it's a moot point.

I was referring to his only mention of a cyberlimb, namely:

Yeah, he was thinking of tracking mounts, and tracking mounts need a laser designator to track a target IIRC.