So I see a lot of folks posting this and that about professionalism, I'm sure we all have our parameters about what's professional and whats not. I am curious what you all consider professional or not and why.

I'll seen many times in movies, books and stories that sometimes someone is needed who can get the job done when none else will do, or sometimes when no one else will take it. These types go by different names: Hit Men, Mercs, Cleaners, etc., the list goes on. They each usually have some reprehensible method of style about them, I mean they are muscle-for-hire after all. Think about it, what really makes them any less professional than any other shadowrunner?

Take someone playing a Gang Member for example. From their perspective professional might simply mean "not getting caught", so they kill anyone who might have witnessed them on their mission doing something nefarious. While a Company Man or Samurai type might try intimidation or strong-arming threats as opposed to murder. I'm sure we can all agree that killing so many leaves a lot of physical evidence that a spur-induced threat does not. Similar ideas about professionalism seem to spill over into fencing loot as well.

I've noticed that many folks seem opposed to fencing ill-gotten goods which strikes me as puzzling. I mean, yeah it seems rather dumb sometimes that runners would be grabbing up items from some corp office or some dead samurai, but why not? They aren't abiding by any laws most of their SIN-less lives, so why should robbery and theft be considered unacceptable? If they fulfill their obligation to Mr. Johnson and don't make a mess of things, what does it matter if they sell of stolen property, or keep for their own use? The way I see it, the black-market operates on similar premises.

With all that being said, here rough gauge of how I rate professionalism for my runners. It's more of a mental guide, this is probably the first time I've committed it to any medium:

1) Not getting caught.
2) Always getting the job done.
3) Not leaving evidence behind.
4) Following orders and instructions.
5) Keeping cool when the pressure is on.
6) Only harming those related to the job.


So what do you consider professional and unprofessional and why?

You summed it up pretty well, too. Another thing I usually consider is the attitudes at the meet -- usually based on an etiquette test. If the Johnson likes them, it helps bring them more business as he suggests the team to others.

Here's how I define it:

1. Gets the job done.
2. Doesn't use unnecessary violence.
3. Doesn't take anything personal.
4. Conducts negotiations courteously.
5. Doesn't leave any evidence (that can incriminate the employer)
6. Doesn't argue with teammates during a job (follows orders or gives good ones)
7. If they get caught, they keep their mouth shut.


The reason I expand on the evidence thing is because dead bodies are also evidence, and so are spent casings and the like. You can't go extracting bullets from every corpse, so you just try your best to make the evidence you do leave more or less ambiguous.

I don't think there's any point to a Shadowrunner keeping their mouth shut if they get caught. The whole point of the Mr Johnson/Shadowrunner rigamarole is that the runners don't know who their employer is, or why they are doing the job they are doing. Thus, they can't really answer many questions. And if answering questions is going to save them some pain, they might just answer them. They're probably screwed already, but there's no particular loyalty between the employer and the Shadowrunner; nobody is going to be bailing them out.

Even beside that point though, of course, not all shadowrunners are going to act perfectly.

I say you can't take anything personal because your out there doing a job.

I had a team that had to extract a scientist who happened to be a beautiful woman, we noticed that our sammie (the team's "leader") was a bit more interested in this scientist than he maybe should've been. Turns out it was an old girlfriend of the sammie's. She confided in him that she hated working for the corps and that she wanted to run away and make a new life. All this went on without anybody else's knowledge.

We were supposed to arrange a meet with the johnson so we could hand over the girl and get our cred. The plan was that we would meet with the johnson and after verifying that he had the goods (we were supposed to be getting paid in the form of some hard-to-find weaponry), we'd hand over the girl, who was being held in a van 3 blocks away.

The sammie volunteered to watch the girl and the van while we made the meet. Then he'd bring her when it was all "clear". One team member voiced some concern over this, but the sammie told him something like "How long have we been doing this for together? You know me man, this is business."

Anyways, we met with the johnson, checked the goods, and when it came time to deliver, the sammie never showed. Little did we know he'd totally fallen for his ex-girlfriend and he'd bailed to run away with her.

We said we didn't know what was going on, but agreed to find the sammie and the girl which we never did. After that, getting a job in Seattle was VERY hard. I think I ended up taking a job at Nacho Mama or something.

Profesionalism regards attitude. All you said is correct, but there's more. To be a professional, you have to act like one. And professional means "one who works as", so it has lots of connotations about acting properly, looking properly, and all that.It's not only getting the job done, but getting the job done smoothly. In SRs world, it has to do a lot with acting a bit corp-like.

As for stealing, it's not professional because it sends out a messege: we're poor, so we need to steal to make a living. Even if it isn't true, people hear that you've been taking things and selling them on the run and start thinking you really need the money. If you do it with a high-profile target, it also attracts aditional attention. If you loot dead men, people start thinking you really are in need, because loot doesn't pay off so nicely.

Obviously, this is al IMO.

Corporate attitude is what I reject from Shadowrunners. I don't think a runner should be trying to act corporate; they think they're better than corporations. Either they value their freedom and refuse the inhibitions of corporate life, or they think they're more ethical than the corporate slaves. Something sets the runner apart from the suits, or they'd be a suit; they're criminals by choice, not out of convenience. The corporations aren't going to be looking out for them; they're disposable. There's a thin tightwalk the corps and the shadowrunners walk, where their business relationship is convenient; if it becomes profitable enough for either side to betray the other, they will do so.

Of course, it's a lot easier for the corp to betray the runners than vice versa, and neither USUALLY happens. But it's a matter of convenience more than loyalty. I guess that's professional, in a way.

Important to professionalism is consistancy and rules that make sense. I knew I had a problem with my character when another PC said to me, "So we can't kill him, but we can leave him to suffocate and looting corpses is okay? I'm willing to play by your rules they seem fine, I'd just like to have some vague idea of what they are."

Yup, it's professional, because it helps in the long-run (betraying every runner you hire doesn't help you hire a new team when needed).

As for corp-like. I meant corp in high levels. In a way, they're like different corporations negotating something together. Theyt have different goals and ways, but have to settle in a middle point.

Just remembered. It's professional to look after your team mates, at least while on a run. It helps build up the necessary cofidence between usually lonely characters, and so, is quite important.

Ye gods, here we go again.

-Siege

Well maybe on the executive level.

Also keep in mind that whatever you do at the crime scene is information for the investigators. Regardless of what you do with whatever you take, the detectives investigating will get a different picture of you depending on how you handle the crime scene, and taking things or not taking things can cut both ways. Taking stuff is not categorically dangerous, but it comes close, and there are a lot of factors that need to be weighed.

Which brings up a good point: on certain circumstances, it may make sense to take everything you can get your hands on and then destroy most or all of it.

~J

True. Fire destroys all evidence.

They just didn't destroy enough. You need to think big.

All depends on the evidence you're trying to destroy.

And arsonists tend to get caught by evidence not attached directly to the fire itself.

-Siege

Bigger.

A lot of things— and a lot of potential evidence— will not be destroyed in a conventional structural fire, which simply does not burn hot enough. Thermite, on the other hand, will do a wonderful job on just about any evidence you need to get rid of— and it's dirt cheap and easy to produce. Admittedly, setting a pile off in the middle of the night is going to draw attention, but this is something you do in the barrens.

Either that, or you set it off remotely so it doesn't matter much.

That'd be interesting: melt a pile of firearms in the middle of a normally-busy intersection.

~J

One could do it, but that's another case of taking unnecessary risks (unless, of course, there's some specific need to do this publically).

That last post (and this one) is me posting during brief lapses of consciousness, so it's likely to make less rational sense than most of my posts.

Right. Sleep.

(Though things like that can help to establish a rapidly-shifting MO)

~J

Just a quick thought about "professionalism"

I think a lot of it from an SR perspective is about doing what's right. The whole point is about the conflict of various rights/wrongs. I think there's a reason that the warriors of SR are Samurai, and it's not just a cheesy Japanese reference.

(Disclaimer - I think I've got a pretty good grounding in all this, but I'm not an expert and I'm happy for someone to rubbish it and/or help me on the path to illumination).

Look at the principles of Bushido (there are seven, right?) - which comes first? What does one do when one of those principles conflicts with another? What do you do when Mr J (one's Lord) asks you to murder an innocent child, or to betray your brother? How do you refuse, if that's the choice you make?

This to me is the essence of character in a lot of literature and translates especially well into the world of gaming - the best characters are the ones that have internal conflict due to their own code of conduct. Even the most professional of characters will at some point deliberately compromise that (Leon is a fabulous example of such because he realises that taking on Matilda is the RIGHT thing to do). Personally I don't care if someone does take things, as long as the player knows why he's doing it, even if he's aware of the risks. Falling in love with the kidnap victim is a wonderful piece of literature and should be rewarded as such - sure it's cliched, but what the hell.

Anyway, just my tuppence.

I have played and GMed (GMed more than played) campaigns of various settings and flavours (all SR btw) and I have noticed that looting bodies and taking toys and suveniers from the crime scene is somewhat of a daily activity for most runners.
I started to disagree with that (when I was GMing) because i knew my NPC guards will be arriving any time soon to clean up the mess but my players continued to 'search for loot' and eventually by killing few they realized looting isnt a greatest of ideas. Then they transfered into 'run and grab' type of searches where at one point trhe munchkin street sam decided to powerlift a 500kg troll because he had nice cyber he could probabbly try to fense off to his organlegging contacts...wierd person...anyway...he failed the athletics roll on the powerlifting and ended up trapped under the troll and the rest of the PCs left the scene, leaving him behind...that campaign ended right there cause of Real Life argument that broke up the gaming group....so now i just play and havent GMed in a while.

When i was GMing i didint see why looting was important to the players.
But now I play mostly and I realize. Its because GMs dont pay nearly enough as they should be and runners have to fuel their dreams by making money on the side.
Random healing bills can put a dent in runner's savings and that new car taht looked so close is now 3 months of runs away...
So 'really' a professional runner would not use FMJ ammo and go caseless only (and BBB suggest caseless is the norm in SR) as wellas wear gloves and other gear to not leave signatures behind, as well as avoid collecting suveniers as they provide direct link to crime scenes that runner has been.

How much can u trust ur LVL 1 fixer. what if he is working with the federal police? what if he is under cover? what if he is a snitch who is the eyes and ears of the police on the street? do u really want him to link u with 10 different crime scenes and make a nice case againt u that will get him promoted so quicky that u wont even notice how fast u ended up in a jail cell with a troll named "Daddy".

From my experience the term "professionalism" was usually misplaced or non existant when describing our runs but it depends on the group.
A group of people who work 40+hours a week in a business suit or other professional job dont quite want to mimic their lives into SR so most just want to relax and let loose and have fun.

As for professionalism i try to stay away from Holiwood definitions through movies and look in a more real way. Army/Police Spec. Units : get the job done, minimise casulties (friendly and bystanders), neutralize/incapacitate enemy/offenders,go home screw ur wife/gf. End of story. But then again I have been raised in a Slavic country from young and some mindsets are hard to change. Our police still instills fear in the public and suing coppers is a big joke. Unlike western countris where public liability insurance skyrockets everytime a police officer hits an armed assailant in a 'illegal' way or breaks his heart by calling his mum fat you get the point...

Having recently seen Transporter I have a new level to strive for with my characters regarding professionalism. If you have not seen it, I highly recommend it.

This guy displays a corporate flavor of professionalism that is very interesting to watch as he deals with those who hire him. Of course, if your concept precludes the corporate attitude, then this attitude won't fit where you want to be.

Another movie that I only recently saw :hangs head in shame: is For a few Dollars More with Clint Eastwood. Talk about running the shadows in a very small western town near the border! He handles things in a very professional method as well.

Just food for thought.

The Transporter is kind of a bad example. It sets up the character as a "professional," but then he immediately breaks his professional code, and then the movie basically forgets about it.

So which character is more representative of the Shadowrunner? The cool professional who doesn't care what he's doing for the money, but does what he's told? Or the guy who maintains a "code" to keep a distance between himself and what he's doing, but will break it if he thinks it means doing the decent thing?

...or is it the muscular rigger who indulges in homoerotic oil-fights?

The Transporter is a damn good example of what I was getting it. He sacrifices his own code (thus career and potentially life) because of the humanity he felt once he realised what his package actually was, then the resultant feelings for the girl. It actually makes the character more human and, lets face it, without it there's no story

It also makes him a piss poor professional.

A few comments...

No, the Transporter is an excellent example of the best comedy of 2002.

As for stealing, it's unprofessional because it's sloppy. It slows you down and opens you up to additional risk. Endangering yourself, your team, and your mission for minor personal gain is amateur night, plain and simple.

Again, it all depends on what you're stealing and under what circumstances.

And rendering someone into organs in other people is a great way to cut down on evidence. I agree carrying someone out like that is stupid, but if you're killing someone on the street...

~J

Also, speaking of risk:

Anything that reduces the number of runs you take is almost guaranteed to reduce your total risk. You'd have to be pretty damn sloppy not to make it worth your while to try to not have to go on that next run.

~J

I don't penalize players for additional theft unless the job has a stipulation that makes it unwise, like "it's imperative no record of the intrusion be found" like for a tech swap and such.

yeah. if you're picking up every holdout and switchblade on the bodies of your vics, that's not professional. if you bust into the security center and pop a round in the sec decker's head, you'd be an idiot not to grab his million-nuyen deck. unless you're getting paid more than 300k (the minimum fence value for that deck) for an average run, nabbing high-value items like that should be SOP.

it's like this: why do you build a reputation as a professional? so that you're known to be dependable. why do you want to be known as a dependable guy? so that you get more and better jobs. why do you want more and better jobs? so that you can make more money. stealing a million-nuyen cyberdeck lets you skip all the other steps, and go straight to the part where you're making money. a professional rep is not an end to itself--it's the means to an end, and the ends (in this case) justify the means.

Professional, to me, means doing a job, getting it done, and making a small a deal out of it as possible.

At the meet, you treat the Johnson with respect -- if you don't, he probably isn't going to treat you with much either. Dress like you're going to a job interview -- because you are -- but make sure you fit in. If the meet's at the Top of the Needle, the dress code is a little different from meeting the guy at Murphy's Pub. The Johnson doesn't want you attracting attention (and you shouldn't want it either). Don't argue with the Johnson just to be an ass, or to squeeze every last penny from him. If he offers you a fair price, don't haggle too much. On the other hand, if you're a Johnson, you don't lowball the hell out of the runners (and don't say it's a milk run when it's not, because if they find out you're lying they aren't going to do the job and they are going to be on your ass afterwards) and you don't treat them like scum -- it's a two way street. If either side isn't happy, they should just walk away and consider it the price of doing business.

During the job, don't blow the hell out of anything you don't have to. Don't kill anyone if it's reasonably avoidable. Don't take anything that isn't related to the job -- it just makes you a bigger target. And that stuff is going to trace back to you as the seller, not the Johnson. Remember you're on a team and do what's best for the team. Make sure you're running with people you can trust to back you up. If things start to go south in a big way, and it's obvious you've been jerked around with, get out as fast and as clean as possible. Be prepared. Be careful. Be aware of your surroundings. Remember the job, and remember that getting it done is what matters. Remember what's best for you and the client.

After the job, don't try to renegotiate the deal if everything went reasonably close to plan. Make sure you don't lead the heat back to your client. Make sure the client gets the goods he paid for. Make sure he knows he can trust you if he is looking for talent again. Don't brag about the job. Don't ever talk about it again in a way that will endanger you or the client.

The subject brings me back to a story I heard once from a history professor about a group of Swiss mercenaries that were in the employ of a European monarch; during a particularly brutal campaign, the king was preparing to launch a new offensive. The Swiss captain went to the king and told him that he needed to launch the offensive the next day, because the day after that his unit's contract would be up and they would return home. The offensive was launched, and most of the Swiss died in the attack. That's the story I think of when I think of professionalism.

I'd just like to make a comment on the stealing bit. It's never really been a problem in my group. In fact, I can't think of a single player or character that went on a looting spree. Now, there has been the occasional grab of ammo/weapons or other small things. Mostly to be used and discarded.

The character's aren't usually hired to break in some place and loot it. To this end, being professional would mean to accomplish what you were hired to do with minimal sideline stuff. Sure, if the decker seems some paydata he can swipe while he's downloading the stuff for Mr J that's not a problem. If the team takes out some guards (lethally or preferably non-lethally) and snag some extra ammo or what not (especially if they happen to be packing APDS or something similar...) I don't see that as much of an issue.

But, when the looting becomes the main focus of the game, outside what the characters are hired to do, I think that's when the game as devolved into a less-than-professional attitude.

A professional shadowrunner in my view is someone who does the job he's hired to with a minimal of exposure to himself, his contacts, and his employer. He does what he's hired to do and really not much more. He gets the job done in a timely manner that benefits him and his employer and I could go on for awhile like that. A lot of what other people have said definitely apply in my view as well.

If a runner is to be expected to not take stuff, he or she should be paid enough to make that reasonable.

Analogy: it's not terribly reasonable to hire someone part-time for $8.00 an hour and include a clause that restricts them from working for anyone else. If you want exclusivity, you pay for it.

~J

I don't object to looting as long as it doesn't interefere with the mission parameters.

If the mission specs clearly forbid actions and you violate the contract by performing said action, it all goes to hell.

And making a run just for the loot is basically what runners do anyway - except our loot is provided by the person hiring us. Runners have gone free-lance to acquire new weapons, vehicles and equipment that can either be used or fenced for cash.

I'm surprised LS can't pick up shadowrunner activity by monitoring the number of car thefts in an area...

-Siege