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FrostyNSO
I have two questions actually:

1) How in the world is somebody going to fire a minigun without racking up a huge recoil modifier (fixed fire rate added to heavy weapon recoil)?

2) If a 1kg weight affixed to the underside of a weapon provides -1 recoil, would it be unreasonable to apply this -1 recoil to rifles with an underbarrel grenade launcher?
Cain
1. Fire it from a vehicle, and only use it for supressive fire.

2. It's unbalancing, game wise. Also, how can it help when you fire a grenade?
toturi
My first reaction to your title question is get Neo to destroy Smith and you will inevitably get MORE! biggrin.gif

1) Use Suppressive Fire Rules.

2) The underbarrel grenade launcher prevents the installation of the underbarrel weight. For a Canon reference, look at the Ares Alpha as an example.
Herald of Verjigorm
1) suppresive fire or in its proper form as a vehicle weapon (with the high powered recoil reduction you can buy for vehicle mounts)
2) not if you can convince the GM that it isn't (ya munchkin)

[edit]A lot of agreement here
BitBasher
1) Suppressive fire or mount it on a vewhicle or advanced gyro mount.

2) I allow that but not all GM's will. Then again I also allow a point of recoil comp for a fixed stock so I must be wacko insane!
FrostyNSO
The gyro mount doesn't quite do the trick, you still face about a +6 modifier or something. Suppressive fire is tempting though.

With the underbarrel weight, what I am saying is that if a 1kg weight can reduce recoil, couldn't a 3kg grenade launcher? and I'm not talking about compensating the launcher, just the rifle it's attached to.
Ol' Scratch
Mount it on a vehicle, get maximum recoil compensation (whatever method is most efficient for the mount), and use tracer or incendiary rounds mixed in with your normal ammunition.
Kagetenshi
If you really want to use it with a character, get a big troll and make sure you always have something else to fire the uncompensated rounds at.

~J
toturi
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
The gyro mount doesn't quite do the trick, you still face about a +6 modifier or something. Suppressive fire is tempting though.

With the underbarrel weight, what I am saying is that if a 1kg weight can reduce recoil, couldn't a 3kg grenade launcher? and I'm not talking about compensating the launcher, just the rifle it's attached to.

A properly aligned and placed 1kg underbarrel weight will compensate but not a grenade launcher. I used the M16/M203 combo before, and IMO, it was bulky and didn't help with the recoil.
FrostyNSO
I too have used the M16/M203 combo (actually M4/M203), but I have also used a number of rifles with foregrips and found that they have little to no effect either. But can you seriously tell me that an M16 generates that much recoil to begin with? (even autofire in short bursts is fairly controllable)

I assume underbarrel grenade launchers have become more 'streamlined' in the 60 some-odd years they've been developing them from now.
Cold-Dragon
well, I'm not sure if there's a trick around it, but you can use the take aim option to lower the score a bit before you take the shot. At best you could do a full volly of 10 rounds or whatever, but you'll have aimed for several turns then.

otherwise, firing at every drekkin' thing you can see is the last resort option. (it's also why you run when someone does that with a VAC. Because if they roll lucky, you're probably screwed).
Ol' Scratch
Once again: Tracer or Incendiary Rounds. This is the sort of thing they were made for. Every third round lowers the target number (and thus counters excess recoil) of the shot.
JaronK
Well, two cyber arms with internal gyro mounts, plus a deluxe gyro mount added in, on a strength 6-11 troll provides something like 15 points of recoil compensation before adding anything from the weapon. That might do the trick.

JaronK
xizor
do cyber arm wrist gyros stack? i didnt think they did...
hmm
just a little rules clarification
if you are using a vehical mounted mmg would a cyber arm wrist gyro help with the recoil?
Raptor1033
i know the mini-gun description says you can't do barrel mods on the weapons... but is there any actual reason why other than balance? i can't imagine why you couldn't put barrel mods on the weapon, specifically gas vent IVs, if you applied the same mod to all the barrels. sure it'd be expensive but with the vents it would be well worth it. i'm just saying, pay for the price of the gas vent 4 however many times it takes to cover all the barrels but you don't get to stack all the bonuses, just a flat -4 to recoil for each bullet.
JaronK
I would assume that the motor is precision made to move the current weight of the barrels... adding a bulky gas vent system to each barrel would screw up the weighting and balance, and might not even be able to fit.

I don't really see why multiple gyromounts wouldn't stack though.

JaronK
de4dmeta1
QUOTE (JaronK)
I would assume that the motor is precision made to move the current weight of the barrels... adding a bulky gas vent system to each barrel would screw up the weighting and balance, and might not even be able to fit.

Add to that the Gas Vent systems supposedly vent barrel gasses at specific points and angles to counter recoil. Not very effective when the barrel has no fixed location in relation to the rest of the gun, yes? I could see a gas vent system on a minigun actually increasing recoil unless it was custom-designed and perfectly installed (which IMO should be out of reach for Joe Runner)
Modesitt
If you're talking about the Vindicator minigun, it's usually inferior to the Ares HV MP-LMG. The R3 ones are worth using on a vehicle though.

Anyways, recoil. Note this passage from R3.
QUOTE ("Page 140 Rigger 3")
When firing turret-mounted weapons, reduce recoil by half before applying recoil compensation from any accessories.

Turrets cancel the double-recoil modifier for heavy weapons.


So if you fired an Ares HV MP-LMG on full auto and pumped out 18 rounds, you'd need 9 points of RC from somewhere to make all of the recoil go away. If you didn't have 9 points, you'd only suffer +1 TN per uncompenated recoil, not +2.

A Small or larger turret or a fixed hard point would be sufficient for counteracting all of the recoil on a minigun. You'd need to buy 7 or 8 points of Gunnery Recoil Adjusters depending on which way your GM opted to round the 15 points of recoil.
Necro Tech
Any one ever fired the actual weapon its based on? The M114 or something like that. Raygun would know. How are those damn things actually comped? The only time I've ever seen one was when I heard you could possess one under some weird grandfather clause and this was Arizona where you can carry pistols on your hip. I got to see it (not getting fired) but all it had was a large tripod mounted on a truck bed. They actually showed a minigun in use on the show Monster Garage and it just didn't seem that hard to control. Just out of pure curiosity I'd like to know just how hard it should be to control.

In game, put it on a Vehicle with gyro stabilizers or the like and get tracer rounds. Then you can have zero recoil and use it for pin point anihilation of pedestrians.
Thistledown
Getting 9 or 10 points when using weapon design rules can be done, so add that all in to help you.
FrostyNSO
I was thinking man portable, not mounted. Like Blain in Predator.

The General Electric mini-gun isn't "compensated", but it is very heavy. This reduces the felt recoil by a ton.
Ol' Scratch
Considering he only hit anything when using suppressive fire, that's pretty much your answer right there.
BitBasher
Yeah, ol painless did a whole lot of forest clearing and that's about it.

and...
QUOTE
Add to that the Gas Vent systems supposedly vent barrel gasses at specific points and angles to counter recoil. Not very effective when the barrel has no fixed location in relation to the rest of the gun, yes?
No. When each barrel fires it DOES have a fixed position in relation to the rest of the gun. Only one barrel fires at a time, and it's always in the exact same position when it does.
FrostyNSO
No way, ol' painless did a great deal of killing when they assaulted that rebel camp. Not all of it was suppressive either, there were a few "point and shoot" kills.
Ol' Scratch
If by "point and shoot kills" you mean "suppressive fire in a one-meter area," sure. I don't remember any examples of accurate shooting from him. He relied on emptying lead in an occupied area and hoping he'd hit something.
FrostyNSO
Dude he shot some guy up on a ledge (or I think it was a ledge, it's been a long time) from like 100 meters away.

I'll have to go back and watch it again, but either way, it is afterall a movie.
Req
"Try some o' this. It'll make you into a god damn sexual Tyranosaurus...just like me."

You can see why I voted for the man when I lived in Minnesota. smile.gif
FrostyNSO
I believe it started, "Ya'll are a bunch of slack-jawed f*gg*ts..."

I also liked,

"I aint got time t' bleed..."

I'd vote the guy into the presidency if I got the chance.
Req
well, I loved Jesse, except for his stance on gun control ("Everyone should have four guns, then the world would be a safer place") and college scholarships ("if they're smart enough to get into college, they're smart enough to figure out how to pay for it").

But the man had Action Figures. You don't get cooler than dat.
Siege
Nobody and I do mean nobody is gonna think, "Well frag, he can't hit anything with that" when someone cranks up a man-portable minigun.

If you're close enough to see it, you're close enough to dive for cover and hope he can't hit anything with it.

Fear of being shot is as much a factor in suppression as the actual mechanic of being shot.

-Siege
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I was thinking man portable, not mounted. Like Blain in Predator.

The General Electric mini-gun isn't "compensated", but it is very heavy. This reduces the felt recoil by a ton.

Yes, all the way down to 270 pounds.

No human could possibly fire an support a firing minigun, which is why they're always mounted. Of course, real miniguns also fire 6000 rounds per minute, about 20 times a SR minign's rate-of-fire.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Siege)
Fear of being shot is as much a factor in suppression as the actual mechanic of being shot.

Not entirely true. Suppression with accurate, low volume fire can be much more effective at suppression than high volume, inaccurate fire. Admittedly, a major factor is training, in which hardened, experienced soldiers will know to stay down when faced with the former and will know that the latter is unpleasant and not entirely dangerous, but not nearly so dangerous as it could be. For your average, largely untrained soldier, any gun going off either sends him to the ground or sends him running, doing something stupid.

As for the gun being man portable, Predator required a truck of batteries and off camera ammunition to make it the thing work. No soldier can carry enough ammunition to make it worthwhile, nor, with present (or, in the case of Shadowrun, backwards) technology, power it. As a man portable weapon, at best, its ultility is questionable outside of the most specialized, defensive role, and only for the fantastically strong. But all that said, I suggest you forget real world figures, as this really isn't going to make sense until you do. It's just another example of reality and Shadowrun being dramatically incompatible, and you're only going to run into problems when you try and stick the two together. I've come to stand by this: it's one or the other.
FrostyNSO
A great suppression tactic is to just put a single round 1 after the other into the cover the guy is behind, and if you can do that, if he sticks his head out....
Siege
Assuming the Vindicator minigun is legitimately man-portable, even battle-hardened troopers are going to dive for cover first and look around second if his (or her) cover hasn't evaporated in a hail of fire.

If you look to evaluate the skill of the shooter first, you'll either find out he's bad or you'll die trying.

-Siege
HolyYakker
QUOTE (Siege)
Nobody and I do mean nobody is gonna think, "Well frag, he can't hit anything with that" when someone cranks up a man-portable minigun.

If you're close enough to see it, you're close enough to dive for cover and hope he can't hit anything with it.

I gotta agree with Seige here. Perhaps it is just me. My mentality is one of caution and survival. I'd much rather convince the large troll to go make sure that our Minigunman can't shoot for drek before I stick MY head out to see if he can play William Tell (minus the apple).
Austere Emancipator
For the miniguns: What Arethusa said. You've got to forget RL when thinking about SR miniguns. They aren't compatible.

Miniguns.
Blaze
In general, if you're trying to shoot a point target with a machine gun or minigun you're using the wrong weapon. For Assault Rifles and smaller you may want to look into the possibility of Gas Vent IV, Underbarrel weight, Personalised Grip, Recoil Pad (or folding stock) and Cyberarm Gyromount as a way to rock'n'roll in full-auto without feeling recoil. With LMGs and larger, stick to suppressive fire and area effect- right tools for the right job. smile.gif

-JH.
Hague
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Siege)
Fear of being shot is as much a factor in suppression as the actual mechanic of being shot.

Not entirely true. Suppression with accurate, low volume fire can be much more effective at suppression than high volume, inaccurate fire. Admittedly, a major factor is training, in which hardened, experienced soldiers will know to stay down when faced with the former and will know that the latter is unpleasant and not entirely dangerous, but not nearly so dangerous as it could be. For your average, largely untrained soldier, any gun going off either sends him to the ground or sends him running, doing something stupid.


Your 'average, untrained soldier'...where do you find those? Are you meaning someone that one day puts on cammies and says "You know what? I'm a soldier now."

Grunts (infantry) are well-trained. Today. I can only imagine what 60 years from now will be like.

You're spot-on with the accurate, low volume fire thing, though. Any gunshots, aside from your own, quickly become only so much background noise. Its when the dirt starts getting churned up a few feet from you (or less), that it suddenly becomes quite obvious that someone is being thoughtless enough to shoot at you.

Although, seeing a huge amount of tracers coming in your general direction, and knowing that they are loaded every 5th round, can have the same effect. Its the ones you DONT see that prompt you to keep your head down.

Oh, and if you think that highly trained people are just going to stand there when the shooting starts near them, you need to re-think your opinion. One of the first things that gets pounded into your head in infantry training is to hit the deck, or grab whatever cover is available, when the shooting starts.
Luke Hardison
Yes, our first field day in MILSCI I was "Cover and Concealment", and we never went on another field exercise where we didn't hear those words over and over and over and over and over ..........
Arethusa
I should've been clearer on that.

The average, untrained soldier is just that, but only, as I should've been clearer, relative to, say, the aforementioned hardened, experienced soldier— in this case, let's say a 5 year Delta vet. No matter how solid a soldier that 3rd ID private with no combat experience is, he's not going to be the equal of that operator, and no insult to the Rock of the Marne, but that's just how it is.

That said, that completely green infantryman is much more likely to hit the dirt and stay down even if the suppressing fire is not effective. That operator, on the other hand, is more likely to assess the situation, determine whether the fire is heavy enough to impede further progress towards his objective, and work from there. I'm not talking about caricatures where special ops wade through bullets and mow down villages with M60s loaded with machismo and bravery, but the fact remains that in reality, far more often than not, there's a world of difference between the two.
FrostyNSO
When I was deployed, we'd see regular army who were hitting the dirt when the enemy weren't even shooting in our direction.

I don't care how much a vet you are though, if somebody is actually shooting at you, you should find some cover or get to your objective ASAP because eventually they will hit you.

edit: obviously we can't go into this definitively because every situation is different.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Hague @ Aug 22 2004, 10:58 PM)
Your 'average, untrained soldier'...where do you find those? Are you meaning someone that one day puts on cammies and says "You know what? I'm a soldier now."

Grunts (infantry) are well-trained. Today. I can only imagine what 60 years from now will be like.

Spoken like someone who doesn't remember any countries beyond the First World.

That fourteen-year-old with a Kalashnikov, is he well trained?

~J
Siege
Would you really count the 14-year old as a trained soldier?

A weapon and a willingness to use it doesn't a soldier make.

And I suspect even a 14-year old veteran will have learned basic survival skills, depending on how many battles he's managed to walk away from.

"Duck and Cover" is as common a lesson in some areas of the US as "stop, drop and roll."

-Siege
Kagetenshi
Trained? No, that's why I'd call him your "average, untrained soldier". Well, maybe a bit below average, but untrained nonetheless.

~J
Arethusa
Honestly, that 14 year old is a fair bit more likely to stand in the street, fumbling with his AKM than run for cover.

My point was really only that an experienced soldier possessing of exceptional skill and training is far less likely to get pinned down by ineffective, high volume suppression than a green, inexperienced, and relatively untrained soldier.
Hague
QUOTE
Spoken like someone who doesn't remember any countries beyond the First World.


I remember the third world countries quite well, thanks. How about you? And no, Mexico doesnt count. Neither does anywhere in Boston.

You cant call that kid a soldier, even in the loosest definition of the term. You cant even properly call him militia, unless he's had some sort of training. And one of the first things that any training worth the name will teach you is, when taking fire, or even MAYBE taking fire, eat dirt or grab whatever cover is available. Stand there like an idiot, or do something foolish like try to charge that machinegun nest all by your lonesome and without some return fire from your buddies, and you're going to get chewed up in short order. Standing up is also a good way to catch some mortar fragments, and I dont care WHO you are, thats going to ruin your day.

Our soldiers and Marines in Iraq right now, when they get shot at, they grab some cover. OTOH, have you seen the video with the Iraqi that runs into the middle of the street to try and hit one of our AV's with an RPG, only to get cacked by a stream of autofire from an M249 or M240? Thats what untrained people do, they stand in the middle of an empty street, blazing away, and get hosed. Thats what 14 year old kids with Kalashnikov's do.
Austere Emancipator
Classic case of people arguing about two different things.

A very well-trained and cool-headed soldier might notice that the minigun isn't firing anywhere near him (rather easy with that stream of tracers showing where the bullets are headed), and after having dropped and rolled he might take careful aim and kill the guy with the minigun. A not-very-well-trained and maybe slightly panicky soldier is much more likely to keep his face in the dirt even if none of the bullets pass within 3 meters of him.

Of course, saying that a minigun is inaccurate is a bit silly. From a solid mount a minigun is not much less accurate than any other type of machinegun on full auto.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Hague)
I remember the third world countries quite well, thanks. How about you? And no, Mexico doesnt count. Neither does anywhere in Boston.

Nowhere in Boston is a country nyahnyah.gif

And Mexico is decidedly First World: they couldn’t afford to be anything else. The Russian second-world army was often less than trained, and the Chinese perfected the human wave back in Korea: are you going to tell me that those soldiers were significantly trained?

The Third World need not even enter into this.

~J
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