Pleas tell me why you cant do this. Rapid fire mage.


I came up with this stunt a while ago and I cant work out why it wouldn’t work.

Playing a spell slinger take a trauma dampener and a spell category focus 6 for combat spells. A sorcery (spellcasting) of 5 (6) and power bolt and stun bolt (or mana bolt) at force 5.

In combat take a action to cast the same spell 7 times allocating one sorcery dice to each spell and selecting a base damage level of light.

Assuming your targets linked attribute is 4 (ie you chose the right spell) your 7 dice will generate about 3 successes while there 4 will generate 1-2 (even chance). Multiply this by 7 and you have inflicted 13 boxes of damage.

You then take drain from each spell at 16(L). You will fain to resist it but the trauma dampener reduces these single boxes of stun damage to nothing.

It gets wors when you use ts with one of the shamanic totems that gets +2 dice for combat spells (and +3 is available)

7 spells with 9 dice each at target 4 is 4-5 successes
Resisted with 4 dice at target 5 for 1-2 successes
Probable damage 7 moderate wounds or 21 boxes

Heaven forbid I fetish link the spell to reduce its effective force for the purpose of drain and cast it at force 6. (Drain is still stun).

The system is very strong against shielding but week against anybody with spell resistance (as the edge)

It is also obscenely powerful if used with the death touch spell as you can use a base damage level of moderat

And this is starting character available.

I spoke to 2 people I know that run SR. one said it was balanced but he forgot to account for the totem modifiers. The other told me it would cause problems with addiction (very reasonable) witch is bad for magic but on reviewing the rules for addiction I find that is only a minor problem in the medium term (to keep up the stunt you need to spend karma increasing your body stat otherwise you will eventually loose points from max body and then condition modifier and essence and possibly magic). Probably still good for the length of an average campaign. You should RP being addicted to casting spells however.

I would never play this character normally as I believe it is over powered but if I cant find a reason why it is not allowed I will when the GM that said it was balanced next runes a game. Partly for play testing partly to show him that he is not as good at calculating balance issues in his head as he clams.

Edward

Just how exactly do you cast a spell 7 times in one action? Casting a spell is a Complex Action, and therefor, you only get one per round.

Assuming you play 3rd edition:

Page 107, BBB:

A magician may cast a spell by taking a Complex Action.

Which means you only get one spell per Complex Action.

-Siege

Oh hell, according to page 181, BBB:

A Mage may cast multiple spells - however, a +2 TN to the drain resistence test for all spells cast in the same Complex Action.

So yes - your mage can cast 7 spells, but he's going to be eating a +14 penalty to his Drain test.

-Siege

I'm pretty sure there are rules somewhere for casting multiple spells at a time. It's rarely worth it (drain=nasty), but this may be one of those cases.

~J

And +14 to resist the drain isn’t much of a threat when it is light stun and you have a trauma dampener.

Edward

Actually, so long as you split your Sorcery test dice between all of the spells, you can cast the same spell on as many targets as you like. I'm not too sure you can cast the same spell at a low level on the same target, though. I'll try to find the reference.

It is also useful to target separate opponents with low professionalism ratings so they will run away. The advantage over aria spells is that you don’t harm any other people or objects and you have no risk or drain actually affecting you.

Edward

The foci do not add to every spell cast, they add to total dice you can use to cast with. You have 12 dice (plus spell pool) to split between your 7 spells. This leads you to have less dice than will probably be used to resist.

Assuming you keep spell pool for defense, you can cast 6 spells with two dice each. That's not likely to stage. That's relatively easy to stage down by the victim. You're better off putting 12 dice behind one spell.

And as the spells are all cast on one action, the dice from the spell focus would be divided among them, just as your sorcery skill is divided among them. Also, all the drain rolls are simultaneous which I would rule you take one box off of the total of all of them, not off of each individual one. They were all cast in the same action after all.

Of course, I don't allow the Trauma Damper to work on drain, so it's a moot point in my games.

I just talked to my GM and he said yes, by canon it's legal.

And it's been done once or twice in his experience during 2nd edition.

So - happy munching.

-Siege

BitBasher
Althow your statement “the dice from the spell focus would be divided among them” would make a good argument to stope this stunt it dose not coincide with SR3 p190 spell category foci “a spell category focus provides a number of extra dice equal to its force for the sorcery or drain resistance test for any spell within its category”

I may be looking for a canon reason to disallow it but that is not it.

Not particularly surprised to learn that it has been done before.

Edward

Try reading the paragraph about all types of spell foci.

One other problem even though you are casting 7 spells simultaneously, the target gets to resist each spell individually, making 7 resistance tests with his/her 4 willpower.

You also cannot use more spell pool than your sorcery skill (or specialization).

You must split your sorcery(specialization) dice among each spell to be cast simultaneously - you do not roll your entire skill for each spell.

Each spell cast has to have at least one sorcery die allocated to it - this means you can only cast 6 spells simultaneousluy, and add one spell pool to each, plus totem bonuses and foci.

BTW - I don't beleive totem modifiers apply to each spell when casting simultaneously - you take your 1, 2, 3 dice (whatever it is) and split it up over the whichever spells you choose to add it to.

We houserule that Trauma dampners work on drain, but only on the first one. i.e rolling for six simultaneous spells with 12L drain each, if you fail the first drain - no stun, but any of the five following will add stun damage if those tests fail.

I think the Willpower 4 refers to the target, not the caster.

Not that the extra makes a critical difference in the caster's ability to resist drain - I think the mage has written off the idea of trying to eat a 16L drain.

But in the TN of 4 to 5 can have a greater impact on the shotgun effect.

-Siege

It apers than I focused my reading to much on the specific and didn’t look enf at the general fucus rules. Thankyou Herald of Verjigorm for pointing that out.

ShadowGhost I had allowed for the separate resistance to each spell and I had used no spell pool. I had been splitting my sorcery dice among each spell resulting in sorcery +focus +totem modifier or 1+6+2 for each of the 7 spells. I would disagree with you on the totem modifiers. I think they should apply to each spell but as was pointed out by Herald of Verjigorm a focus would not. Your house rule is a good one and one I had considered but I was looking for something canon.

Siege. You ar very right I had not even intended to role the drain resistance test (I think I already wasted enough time rolling the attacks for 7 spells

Edward

The rules are often a maze, sometimes they are where you expect and it is a surprise to find them there.

I tend to prefer applying the totem modifiers once for all the stacked spells, but that part isn't quite as clear as the focus line.

Thread which came to the conclusion that totem modifers apply wholly to each test.

So to get this over with: when taken to the absurd limits, a starting character looks something like this:

An Albino Gnome Dragonslayer Shaman with Exceptional Attribute Willpower can cast seven (due to specialization) Force 6 Manabolts using 5 dice each (with 6 dice of spell pool left) for Light damage and end up with a single 15L stun drain. For which he has 10 dice to try and soak, which admittedly is hard but not out of the realm of possibility.

Could possibly fetish for drain and knock it down to the equivelent of a Force 5 so when the anklebiter gets enough nuyen to buy the Trama Dampener to complete the munch, it would remain stun without having to geasa.

Sure the character is an astral MIRV, but the character is just fraggin silly. What's he going to do? Anklebite for Justice?

I´ve always seen the option of dividing your dice for casting a spell as casting the spell once, only with multiple targets. If you make that assumption its natural to assume that ALL bonus dice apply to the sorcery skill BEFORE dividing.

As a GM I would definetly, without hesitation disallow casting the same spell several times on the same target in the same round as this is clearly not intended as an option by the constructors of this game. If it was possible to do so it would be, depending on how many times you count the bonus dice, either a waste of dice rolling time or simply a more powerful but complex way of casting spells. Think about it. If a character casts a spell on another, what you want to do is pit the caster´s offense against the target´s defence. Now why do that seven times when it can be resolved in one? I don´t meen any disrespect, but isn´t this just a question of common sense?

Well, an astral machine gun could come in handy now and then.

-Siege

Edit: Ya know, it's silly and the numbers are grotesque - but there isn't anything that prohibits the concept.

It's the same reason if you're going to crank up autofire on a weapon, you'd prefer the recoil to be fairly manageable. Now, if we equate drain to recoil...

Edit 2: Not to mention the astral fireworks display would be enough to give Chicago a run for it's money.

We all have.

But throw in a trauma damper which removes 1 block of Stun automatically and you get 7 boxes of L stun, each resisted individually (by canon).

So a trauma damper would render render all seven of the Drain tests moot.

And the mage has a reasonable chance of being able to nickle-and-dime the target to death.

-Siege

SR3 181

Considering what the same mage could do with a single casting of the spell with all the dice, and add in the fact that the target would only get a single resistance test (instead of getting to use seven times his Body or Willpower in dice overall), it's pretty much a lame tactic.

If you had multiple low- to moderate-threat opponents, it'd almost be worthwhile to split your dice between all of them if you had to take them down as quickly as you could with your niche specialty character. But what's the point? You could do far worse by taking Ambidexterity 4 and the Pistols skill (4 shots, all of them with your full Pistols skill rating and no drain either) without having to specialize into such a silly character type.

It's just a dumb tactic, not a broken one.

Actually, since all seven spells go off in the same action, the other fellow wouldn't have a chance to respond before all seven attacks are resolved.

And this is assuming the target is aware of the barrage about to land on his head, never mind who launched it.

-Siege

Lets chart a bit with 12 dice (6 skill, 6 other) for a 5L spell against a target with 4 as the relevant stat.

6 spells, 2 dice each: one success each, about 1 success each resistance test: no damage
3 spells, 4 dice each: 2 successes each, about 1 resistance success each, 3 light wounds
2 spells, 6 dice each: 3 successes each, same resistance, 2 moderate wounds
1 spell, 12 dice: 6 successes, 1 countered, 1 serious wound

If you apply a totem modifier to each spell, you may shift the optimal damage to 2 or maybe 3 spells (for Fenrir), but It's still not a mightily impressive tactic.

At 1 or 2 dice per roll against 4, your enemy is more than likely to resist it, or else you do minor damage to them and then more to yourself.

True, this trauma dampener might help, but being I don't like the pure abuse of that, I wouldn't allow it or use it.

then there's the fact that at best, you cause M damage if your opponent fails to resist completely. Let's not forget the fact that every time you roll all ones (a dangerously real result with 1 or 2 dice) You get an additional +2 penalty to a roll (or all).

So if you assume the same laws of average as used in teh beginning. you have at least 3 or 4 critical failures, that's an extra +6 or +8 to your drain test, barring dampener abuse.

In fact, in such a situation, I would question the Dampeners durability. Sure it's just a light wound, but think about it, a light wound so intense that, without the dampener you're practically guaranteed to get it anyways, would the dampener short out under teh unusual stress?

I can't wait for someone to blow their head up under the strain...

___

and in the example above me, you may as well use a mana ball, Runners know you're gonna fry everyone then for a fraction of the price to individually target every one of them.

Where did the +2 come from? IIRC the rule-of-one has a GM effect same as nearly every other instance.

~J

If you're asking where this extra penalty that I mentioned came from, I'll tell you...

on page 182 of SR3, under "Sorcery Test" a line specifically says:

Ok. I've heard people come up with weird things that are the "result of a rule-of-1" before that turn out to just have been what their GM ruled once or twice; this time, good sir, you have the better of me

~J

On page 163, it plainly states that Totem bonuses and penalties add or subtract from the final number of dice rolled for particular tests. A mage casting 6 or 7 spells in one complex action is still only making one use of his Sorcery skill. You don't get to add 3 dice seven times just because you split your dice up. This thread goes into a bit more detail on the salient points than the first linked one did. The rules are still vague enough that you could argue the other way, but the GM has more than enough ammo to shoot it down.

As far as the Trauma Dampener, if I were the GM, I would rule that you suffered 7 boxes of potential Drain, minus one box. After all, you are not taking 7 separate Light stuns, you are taking 7 boxes of stun simultaneously.

If you where getting focus dice to each spell rather than refreshing as a dice pool. It was far more effective. Without that it doesn’t work well at all.

I shall prove my numbers.

7 times light damage 9 dice at target 4 opposed by 4 dice at target 5 is 21 boxes of damage and will be very close to this average because of the very large number of dice rolled.

A single spell cast at serious damage 15 dice target 4 opposed by 4 at target 5 result D+3 or 13 boxes of damage (and I think that relies on a variant over damage rule) and because there are comparatively few dice luck plays a greater part.

Also spell defence dice are striped away to less effect under rapid-fire.

As it takes the +3 totem modifier AND spell pool AND a focus to get 7 spells at 6 dice each I no longer believe the technique to be viable. And then it is debatable wether you get the totem modifier to each spell or just once between them

I am most pleased that it is not available although I would have liked to use it to stick one to my stupid munchkin GM.

Edward

All I thought about while reading this was ... Mana Ball. Of Course if the seven targets were too far apart to hit with one ball, then add another.
I know the edge behind the above mage is teh Trauma Damper and that drain on Mana Ball is a Damage level higher, but I would still prefer the ball. More Dice pr opponent

I would also agree on the House Rule that Trauma Dampers doesnt help against Drain damage. It is mental fatique, not bruises you get when casting spells imho

Hence why I say that a trama dampener dosent work on drain.
The concept is different, which I like, but as a GM id shoot you for slowing the game down SO much...

Pah, it's marginally slower than shooting four semiauto shots. Those have an attack test plus a dodge test plus a body test for a sum total of twelve tests in a pass, while this just has fourteen.

If you add in knockback and someone gets hit, this is faster.

~J

Seems to me like it's the "target 4" assumption that makes this a problem. Because "Cover" and "Visibility" apply to mages, the ones in my groups rarely get away with a target less than 7. Now your spell machine gunner is liable to get only ONE success per test, which the Willpower 4 opponents ought to have good odds of matching, thus spoiling the spell.

This is a great technique for zinging scads of opponents or one weak opponent when the following conditions are met:
-=Perfect Visibility=-
-=No Wounds=-
-=No Cover=-

But in those conditions, anything you do (other than send flowers) will take down most opponents.

Note also that if he whips out manabolts at seven targets, this super mage is going to do light or moderate wounds to each target. They will then all shoot the mage. Dr Funkenstein is right: it's not prohibited, but it's not very bright either.

They won't shoot the mage, because by canon unless there's some geas there or they make a test that will be decently difficult against a low-Force spell, they won't be able to identify the mage or, necessarily, that they're even being cast against.

~J

eh, it's a technique. not something you'd use every day, but in certain specialized situations--any time you need to hit multiple targets, but an area spell isn't a good solution (nearby friendlies, targets further apart than your area radius, etc.)

Remember, with a mana attack, you have a chance of making a Samurai notice you.

With a power attack...yeah, right. Good luck on that one.

-Siege