Haven't seen a good ED/SR conspiracy thread here in awhile, and I love the conspiracy discussion, so here's a topic for talk: corrupted dragons in SR.

Besides the rumors of a corrupted dragon being involved in Aztechnology, which go back to the Aztlan sourcebook, what about other ideas to chew on?

What about the Children of the Dragon and the Children of the Dragon Reborn? I have to wonder if there's anything more behind these groups, including the possibility of something sinister. There isn't much to go on, but any cults of dragons always make the hairs on the back of my neck stick up when I read about the Cult of the Great Hunter in Earthdawn, which served the Horror Verjigorm. Verjigorm wanted to corrupt dragons, and collected both dragon eggs and dragons for that purpose. A cult to dragons would serve his needs, on the surface. However, there haven't been many links to support this in the Shadowrun books, that I can think of.

And what about Ghostwalker? He hasn't seemed to garner much suspicion from the other Greats, but his arrival was very suspicious on its own. If you read the journal entries from Hefara on pages 51-54 of Secret Societies of Barsaive, there's an account of a Verjigorm-corrupted dragon being visited through a rift to the astral, where it's astral form was cocooned and corrupted until being set free by the cultists. No one really knows where Ghostwalker was before he returned, but he did exit through an astral rift, and he did bring with him some "wormy" and "slimy" spirits who gave off a "bone-numbing 'I'm going to tear away your sanity' feel" (quotes from the Ghost Stories chapter of Year of the Comet). Some of them were likely shedim (which are suspicious enough on their own, especially if you read about the armies of undead in Barsaive in Chaos, which are actually puppets of a type of Horror), but who knows what else might have been among them? Doesn't really seem like Ghostwalker was in a happy part of the astral while he was away. So if he was in a bad place, gotta wonder why he was there, and what was going on all the time he was there.

The real question would be that if Ghostwalker were corrupted, why haven't the other dragons taken note of it? Or would they stop him? Afterall, in the Fourth World, Vestrivian was a Horror-marked dragon, and the Greats never banded together to destroy him.

The last interesting note is Calozerca, a newly released dragon near Poland that is mentioned in Dragons of the Sixth World. What's interesting about him, despite the fact that it seems like he was locked away for a reason, is how similar the entry on Calozerca's release is to the account found in the Cult of the Great Hunter entry in Secret Societies of Barsaive. In that entry, the Cultists use a staff to assist in freeing a corrupted dragon from one of Verjigorm's cocoons in the astral plane, and they open the astral rift to the cocoon in the Thunder Mountains (not far from the same mountains where Calozerca was released). In the entry on Calozerca, a staff is used in a ritual that is not observed, but shortly after Calozerca is terrorizing the countryside.

Makes one wonder!

Actually I'm wondering if that Calozerca is not someone else completely. A dragon being "locked away" is not making much sense unless he has been imprisoned by others of his kind. A corrupted dragon would have been "removed" by his peers.....

I'm actually more inclined in thinking that this one is rather a banished dragon. And only one Dragon from the ED era would be a good candidate for that theory, the Outcast.

On Ghostwalker, I've started suspecting some connection between him and the Shedim... I don't know why, but I have the feeling the Ibn Eisa thing and the new Japan emperor may be pawn of his.

Unfortunately, these are only speculations, I can't find out any revelant proofs.

The Outcast was a Great though, wasn't it? Calozerca is described as an Adult Western Dragon, but not a Great. But in the Vestrivian entry in the Earthdawn Dragons book, it's mentioned that a Horror-marked Adult can rival the powers of Greats, because of the gifts of its patron.

It's possible, if Calozerca were a Verjigorm-corrupted dragon, that he wasn't locked away by other dragons. In the Secret Societies of Barsaive entry, the Verjigorm cultists go to "free" the corrupted dragon from his astral cocoon, which indicates that maybe they have trouble freeing themselves from the corruption process. Maybe the Greats didn't even know about this particular corrupted dragon, and he's just been locked away in an astral cocoon all this time. Until someone showed up with a certain staff (very similar to the one in the Cult of the Great Hunter entry) and opened the astral rift in the right spot.

Yep, the Outcast was a great, which denies my idea (and erases the black lodge interrest there.... oh well).

Your idea seems to fit better than mine, but I admit I lack a lot in ED knowledge.

The interresting question thought is, why none of the Greats moved ? A corrupted dragon is something they should react to... Of course, we know they tend not to act quickly, carefully planning their strategy before even moving a single pawn, but with a matter of that importance? What about the IEs and other 4th world knowledgeable folks?

Oh, and since you seem to know ED much better than me, I had a guy told me Icewing bought it in ED.... is that true?

Icewing is still kicking in the most recent ED products, as far as I know. However, in Barsaive at War, Vasdenjas (who was the Loremaster in the Earthdawn, a title Dunklezahn had, and now Lofwyr has, as per Survival of the Fittest) died during the siege on Skypoint, and his dragon-twin, Vestrivian (who was a horror-marked dragon) disappeared into a Horror Cloud, never to be seen again (at least that anyone is aware of).

As for why the Greats haven't moved, not sure. But, in the Fourth World, Vestrivian was confirmed as being a Horror-marked dragon (a Horror, Despoiler of the Land, shared his body with him, and would possess him at times) and they never killed him either. I'd imagine the IEs would be more inclined to act, but it's much easier for them to hunt and kill dragons during the downcycle periods than it is to kill one that is awake.

If Ghostwalker were corrupted by the Horrors, why would he kick Aztlan out of Denver?

Plus if Ghostwalker was touched by the darkside so to speak the other greats won't react that badly (in my opinion). He seems to be keeping to himself, as much as any great can, but it presents an oppurinty to study the effects and possibly free him, something the greats of ED wanted to do with Vestrivian after they learned he was two separate beings.

Well, if Ghostwalker is Icewing like many believe, perhaps he views Aztlan in the same light as he viewed good ol' Thera. I mean to compare the two powers they both look alike in certain lights.

Evil things tend not to share power.Evil things tend ot be gready. Now I do not think Little D (A name that my last gaming group gave ghost walker)is evil, or tainted.I just am saying if one is evil, this doesn't mean one likes other evil things...Evil unlike good tends to devide it's self.

You can also consider that Aztechnology is no longer fully a pawn of the Horrors' camp. Oscuro's out, Chavez's leading the show now. There are still some blood mages within the ranks, but they won't be able to affect Aztechnology's policy more than locally (you could have suspicion over the strategy in Yucatan for instance). So a corrupted dragons may consider Aztechnology is a weak and unreliable ally that'd better be thrown out.

I find it far from being the biggest argument against such theory. The dragons's meeting at the beginning of Survival of the Fittest is a lot odder ; the talks would probably no go the way they went if the other dragons had been in front of the astral form of a corrupted dragon.

Plus, if Ghostwalker has been horror (or shedim*) marked it could explain why he met with and then recognized the Church of the Dragon Reborn throwing them in a whole new light as well. Fragging cultists.

* - could be an interesting "power" to give to a Master Shedim (Threats 2 IIRC) allowing them to mark a character as a horror could and really start to have some fun with those supernatural-bad-guys-who-just-don't-quit kinda games

Interesting... regardless of whether these mesh with the intent of the writers (and, while I lack access to any earthdawn books to verify it, you've pretty much convinced me with the Calozerca bit), they're still cool ideas. Its easy to automatically assume that Ghostwalker is one of the "good guys" because his appearance is linked to Dunkelzahn and he dislikes the Azzies (the enemy of my enemy...), its refreshing to hear a possible alternative.

Is horror-corruption something that can not be hidden/masked?

Off-hand yes, beings have been able to hide their horror-marked status form other and destory groups, however it would be extremely hard to hide it form a dragon, although I don't see why not if the mark was done by a Horror who knows what he is doing.

How difficult is it to hide Horror marked status from the whole damned gathering of the Great Dragons?

That depends on the exact social ramifactions and the extent of the Corruption. If the dragon is innocuous or sufficiently intimidating/powerful, then they might be overlooked or not-looked-at-too-harshly-to-avoid offending. Naturally, an in-depth scoping out of one's peers' astral forms is likely a breach of etiquette, possibly of the duel-to-the-depth type.

Likewise, if the Corruption isn't extremely advanced--no clouds of polluted mana surrounding the target, no noticable physical deformations or interesting scars or self-mutilation, no un-Dragonlike behavior or dangerous studies, the Mark is well-hidden or incomplete--then even the dragon itself may be unaware that they're Marked, much less the other dragons. Vestrivan's mark took forty years to complete, and even then no one noticed anything until Vestrivan literally invited the Horror in.

Also if the Dragon can convince (browbeat) the group into believing that the mark isn't bad becuase the Dragon is using it to assist Dragonkind it might be overlooked.

no mention of the "thing" under the Puy de la Taupe in Auvergne (France). This Volcano is the only one that didn't re-erupted, and Lofwyr watches closely whatever is under it. One translation in english the volcano's name would be the "Mole's well"...

Interesting!

I have to admit I don't have Shadows of Europe yet, so I didn't even know about that.