Hey folks,

I'm a few years behind, and still muddling through the process of updating myself between the 2nd and 3rd edition rules. In the course of reading through the Core and MitS, I noticed that grounding has been removed from the game.

I'd always been a big fan of grounding for taking out the Increased Reflexes Spell Foci that every spellcaster seemed to have on him. However, without grounding, it seems like there's no real downside to using a Sustaining Foci with such a spell on it. (And thus, much less incentive for my players to Initiate and get Quickening ASAP.)

Am I missing something, or does quickening now less important for self targeted spells?

TIA

I wish I could give you a better answer, but here's what I suggest for you:

Rating 3 or higher spells are illegal without a permit. Anyone with a f3 or higher spell sustained is breaking the law. It's probably rare that an astral lone star officer is flying by the player, but if it happens, the player may get nailed for having a spell that's too strong.

Also, any place the player is trying to break into is that much harder with active spells. The TN number for any astral security check the GM makes is reduced by the Force of each sustained spell. (I'm not sure of the exact amount, but someone here should have a page for you.

Lastly, and the part I hate the most, is focus addiction. Most spells (Inc Reflexes excluded) aren't that great at any force below 4. Well, there's an optional rule in MITS that says that if you have foci active with a total force higher than double your magic, then you have a chance to lose a point of magic (I think, man, I hate not having my books in front of me). It may not seem like a big deal, but a f5 Armor spell, f4 Increase CHA, and f4 spirit foci and suddenly you're looking at foci addiction.

EDIT: Okay, I should have read your post more carefully. I don't think anything I said addressed what you asked. Oh well. I need sleep.

Spell Sustaning Foci cost more karma, and significantly more cash. Having the spell borken makes the mage have to spend the karma again, which is pretty damn painful.

Well there are three limitations you might be missing. Dispelling, the Force rating for spell sustaining foci and the need to recast once a spell sustaining focus is shut down.

Dispelling lets any mage try to shut down a sustained spell. See the BBB for this, but it's basically a Sorcery test at the force of the spell. Successes reduce the caster's successes. When you get down to zero, the spell ends. This shuts down the spellcaster's souped up reflexes without actually killing him or nuking his focus. I think spell pool could be used to defend a spell (not sure tho), but with six dice targeting the typical Force 1 or 2 focus it's no contest.

Spell sustaining foci now must have a force rating equal to the force of the spell they are sustaining. This is unlike the old Spell Lock, which was always force 1. So you are forced to buy a much more expensive focus if you want to use more powerful (and harder to dispel) spells.

Finally, Spell Sustaining Foci are activated by casting the spell as an Exclusive Complex Action, and drain is a possibility. This is different from spell locks, where (as I recall) only a simple action was needed. Because Increase Reflexes is one of several spells with wicked drain, it's not safe to cast it on the fly as you need it. Especially considering you need as many successes as possible to even have a chance at holding off a dispelling attempt.

Basically, the economics of the Spell Sustaining Focus (higher cost for higher force) and the often high target number for Increased Reflexes mean that you'll usually be able to shut down the speed demon mage with a minimum of effort. You just can't blow him up randomly from astral space. Sadly.

Hmmm... Bit-- I see nothing on pages 190-191 of the BBB to suggest that one must pay karma every time a sustaining-focus-sustained spell is dropped. A sustaining focus can only sustain one spell, but it can be turned on and off at will. There is nothing there to suggest that if the spell is dispelled, the focus must be re-bonded (although your reference may be in MiTS?).

Sustaining foci are your friend... unless you're actually trying to go somewhere where you aren't supposed to be.

I guess the real issue is that in SR3, the spell is not "on" the sustaining focus. The sustaining focus sustains the spell.

A sustaining focus must be activated by casting the spell every time, IIRC. You can't just turn it on and off. You cast the spell, and "upload" it to the focus. When you turn it off, the spell fizzles. You have to do the whole process over again.

Bonding costs only get paid again if you change the spell that can be sustained in the focus (it's specific to a single spell at a time), or if the focus is severed in some way.

Another downside to an active focus (not just sustaining foci) are astral barriers. Imagine walking down the hallway and all the suddenly your arm is stuck behind you because your bracelet foci can't pass. I even think that the ward's creator is notified that someone is trying to pass.

Thanks for the quick responses folks. Looks like sustaining foci are rather improved over the old spell lock. (Tho, looks like they're pricier too.)

I seem to recall, that dispelling was pretty much always an option. But, under the old rules, wearing a spell lock left you with a huge vulnerability, which Quickening essentially over came. It looks like there just isn't a vulnerability there now. And, I'm not sure how I feel about having my casters going at the same point in the iniative order as the sammies, without "paying more" for it.

Has anybody played with adding grounding back in? Possibly as metamagic?

Well, there is always Imps (evil magic gremlins that inhabit foci).

But cost wise, a smart mage will never go below Force 3 for a Foci which costs 45,000¥ + 3 Karma (equivalent of 15,000¥) and at least 1 spell point (another 5,000¥) and can grant only +3D6 (average +10.5 for 65,000¥) compared to Wired Reflexes Lv2 (average +11 for 165,000¥). Then you compare the disadvantages of instability, focus addiction, the astral "beacon" effect, warding, and drain...

I have considered a Metamagic similar to Possession that allows one to possess an active Foci (letting them cast spells against physical targets).

I've got a different take than Kanada Ten's position. Why buy a Rating 3 focus, when you can buy a Rating 1 and replace it twice for the same cost? In our game a Rating 3 or 4 sustaining focus wouldn't last much longer than a rating 1, and it costs a heck of a lot more.

Also, a couple more comments on the overall subject.

Yes, at least one GM allows both 2nd Edition Spell Locks and 3rd Edition Sustaining Foci in his 3rd edition game. Grounding only happens through Spell Locks, and presumably he allows Physical Spells to be cast through them. I think it's a cool idea.

A spell lock can be deactivated and taken through a ward. Not possible with Quickened Spells. Sometimes magicians are going to lose a quickened spell that they've invested Karma in.

In addition to dispelling, an active focus can be attacked with astral combat (it's an astral object) or be the astral target of a Mana spell that does physical damage (SR3.176).

a rule my group has tried playing with, in regards to the level 1 Reflexes, is limiting the maximum effect of the additional dice by force*2. in addition to ensuring higher spell and foci levels, which costs more money, it has also made Reflexes +1 and +2 viable options fo those unable to afford the increased cost.

I wouldn't say that sustaining foci have no glaring weaknesses. Wards and other astral barriers are the main hindrance to active sustaining foci (although they still beat quickened spells, since they can be deactivated while the mage goes through the ward). And while grounding does not exist any longer, active foci can still be attacked astrally. And taking out a Force: 1 sustaining focus is a LOT easier than dispelling an increased reflexes spell, since the dispeller has to resist a serious Drain code to dispel that spell. Finally, they count against your limit for focus addiction. Every point is sustaining foci is one less point that you can use for things like weapon or power foci.


I personally prefer the new rules, with no grounding. I always thought grounding was kind of cheesy, and ripe for abuse. One of the old magic books even had an example of the nasty tactics you could use with grounding, in the shadowtalk. A mage had a very low-Force elemental manifest in a room, then hit the hapless spirit with a powerball - enabling him to blast everyone in the room, from astral space. Grounding turns every dual-natured critter into a potential walking bomb - don't stand too close to the shapeshifter or the ghoul! So no, I would not recommend bringing back grounding.

I dunno grounding, but I do know sustaining foci and quickening.

Basically, the Sustaining focus is typically less karma and more nuyen to use than Quickening. On the plus side, its more versatile. On the down side, it can be attacked independantly of the caster (active foci are dual natured), and if taken can be used as a ritual link (believe bonded foci qualify). So basically what you get is a more flexible perma-sustained spell, with more risk attached.

Quickening is more karma due to the initiation cost, and the fact that youll want to quicken something with as much karma as you can. But it has no nuyen cost. It cannot be turned on and off to get around wards and such, but likewise never needs to be recast and wont ever be the source of drain. It cant be astrally attacked unless its an astral-type spell, and it cant be stolen and used against you. But, if its ever dispelled or turned off you have to re-pay the karma to get it back on. Less flexible, but also less prone to fail and no chance of it being used against the caster.

Basically, if the magician can both a) get around wards with the sustained spells on and b) afford the karma sink of quickening; then its far superior. Otherwise, sustaining foci come into play.

As far as the Increased Reflexes spell... A force 1 version of the spell is easily destroyed almost irregardless of the situation its employed in. The mage using it will likley be out the karma/nuyen invested with some frequency; especially anytime an astral opponent has a chance to size them up before an encounter. Most magicians Ive seen played would be hard pressed to repeatedly pay karma for it, and some wouldnt even want to pay nuyen. A higher force version is more durable, but starts to become an investment akin to what sams pay for their reflexes. No essence loss, but character resources are still gone in the form of nuyen and karma. Quickening is the biggest investment of all, but at that point the Sams seemingly free speed is a bargain compared to the limitations and costs of the magician.

Lastley remember that adding +3d6 initiative dice is only an average of +10.5 initative... or 1 extra action. For a minimum of 1 spell point, 15k, and 1 karma paid several times over during campaign thats really not that unbalancing all things considered. Mages with initiatives around 15 isnt too out of line when most sams will go in the 20s if speed is their thing, and being forced to split up your dice pools as a magician hurts worse than having to split up combat pool; especially the way spell pool and sorcery are allocated.

the foci itself becomes astraly active when, well, active. therefor it canbe targeted by combat spells or similar. page 176 sr3, last paragraph about astral objects. basicly you take out one point of force pr damage level (hmm,i wonder what would happen if that was tranferd over to explosives) the spell does. it regains all damage if it goes one whole combat round without further damage and use its force to resist the spell. so while its not a perfect function it can work. owner of said foci can allso add spell defence no matter where he is compared to the foci tho...

so yes the grounding rule is no longer there so you cant hurt the user of the foci as well as the foci. but if your main objective is to take out said foci then you have a nice toolkit