A few questions about weapons and Burst Fire mode...

First, is the Savalette Guardian the only weapon that requires a Complex Action for it's Burst Fire? I'm going off memory here and I may be mistaken, but the other BF capable pistols only require a Simple Action, correct?

Along those lines, using the CC creation rules, making a pistol and giving it a BF mode, is that pistol going to be shooting BF in a simple or complex? I assume a simple.

Assuming I'm correct in my assumptions above , was there any logical reason to give the Savalette Guardian a Complex Burst Fire action other than just as a game balancing mechanic?

It was logical back then, when the Savalette was a novelty.
A heavy pistol which could go burst on your target. Holy Batman!

The Beretta 200ST Light Pistol also requires a Complex Action for it's Burst Fire, a hangover from 1st Ed.

Compare the various BF-capable heavy pistols.

AVS: Can only fire flechette, but can fire BF as a simple action. 30 shot clip.
FN 5-7C: SA/BF, 20 shot clip, 6L damage. 'Nuff said.
Ruger Thunderbolt: Can only fire BF, 12-shot clip, the Lone Star issues, the unusual recoil for two bursts in a round.
Savalette Guardian: SA/BF, but takes complex action to fire BF.

Notice that of them, none of the BF-capable heavy pistols are clearly better in every situation. The complex action is just the savalette's quirk. Quirky weapons are good. Except for the FN 5-7C, which fires light-pistol rounds at, uh, burst-fire speeds. Why would anyone ever use that POS?

Well, they do all seem to have their quirks, but again, what about the CC weapon creation rules? Would one just have to add in quirks to the weapon for balance issues?

Yes, because the CC rules are completely and utterly broken. It's really hard to NOT make a gun that is just plain better than every single gun in its class if you just use the rules as-written.

Start with Heavy Pistol Frame.

Design: Firing mode SA/BF(-1 FCU, 100 DP, +.5 kg), Heavy Barrel(+25 DP, -.25 FCU, +.5 weight), Improved Concealability 2(+40 DP, -.5 FCU), Improved FCU 4(+10 DP, +.5 FCU), Increased Power(+80 DP, -.25 FCU, +.25 weight), Recoil Compensation(+70 DP, .25 FCU, +.25 weight), Weight Decrease 6(+30 DP, -1.5 kg)

Mods: Internal smartlink-2(+180 DP, -.5 FCU), Extended Clip(+40 rounds, +80 DP), Personalized Grip(+25 DP), Folding Stock(+40 DP, +.5 kg)

Congratulations! For the cost of 3,675 nuyen, you too can have a pistol that is better for dealing damage than any other pistol in the book! If you have some way of getting 2 more RC(IE High strength and the foot-blade-thingy), you have a burst-firing conceal 7 pistol. Otherwise, just slap a Gas Vent II on it and you're gold. Firing two 0-recoil 13S bursts per round, you'll blows to pieces anyone stupid enough to get in your way. For more fun, drop the smartlink-2 and give it to an adept with Ambi 8.

Part of the issue with the CC rules is that there weren't enough things like Flechette Only. They really should have added more 'negative' features to help differentiate gun designs, like lower-than-average power, metals that just make the gun heavy, firing a really big round that gives +2 recoil on every shot including the first...Things like that. Anyways, you can just stack all of the best features onto one uber gun.

As for your original questoin - Yes a heavy pistol with burst fire would fire with a simple action.

negative featrues is a dime a dozen, just your gray matter:)

oh and for the cost of a assualt rifle you just made a handgun that can beat any pistol in the books, but can it beat a rifle? do not forget about the range in this mix

allso, if for whatever reason you loose that nice new gun of yous you have to dig up a weapon smith willing to make one, and you just made yourself one hell of a trademark (in the most negative way). sometimes a of the shelf gun with a underbarrel smartlink is better then the one of a kind monster you just described. atleast my gun can be any of a billion guns out there (unless they have info about it on file, nothing a good decker cant take care off )

Are there any plans, even tentatively for a redesign of the CC rules? Or should I just do the smart thing and adopt Raygun's rules for firearms?

it's just as possible to make insanely badass firearms with raygun's spudman's FCG. the difference is, it's also possible to make really lame firearms with it, and the why's and wherefore's make more sense.

any build rules can be munchied, just look at the mach 1,5 vehicles you can build with rigger 3 rules. the main 2 things you got to ask yourself, will it be fun to use and will the gm allow it? its just like cheating in computer games, sure its fun the first time round but the 5th or 6th its old hat (alltho some still use aimbots in FPS multiplayer games, go fig)...

oh, and i prefer picking up light pistols when i make chars (alltho i pack a smg fro when i knowshit happens, that suitcase one is realy nice:)) but then again most chars i make that are not tech or magic centerd usualy go for consealability over firepower (sometimes a shot in the leg is more useful then chunky salsa)...

I feel you otomik, that makes no sense. Anyone have any good justification for it?

"The standard ball round, called the SS190, features an overall length of 1.6 inches (40.5 mm), a projectile weight of 31.0 grains (2.02 grams) and a muzzle velocity of 2,345 fps (715 mps). The SS190 projectile features steel core in front of an aluminum core toward the base. The bullet penetrates about 10 inches (26 cm) of 10 percent ballistic gelatin, according to testing conducted at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy in September 1997. The SS190 round will also penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar, the typical "Flak jacket" (including CRISAT protection, which is a combination of titanium and Kevlar) worn by infantry to protect them from shrapnel produced by exploding devices, or a standard PASGT (U.S. Kevlar) helmet at 150 meters (164 yards), which is the effective range of the P90 Personal Defense Weapon. The weapon will still defeat Level 3 body armor at 200 meters (219 yards). The "maximum effective range" using the NATO definition (the maximum range where a weapon's projectile will still deliver 85 joules on target) is 400 meters (437 yards). Thus, according to NATO standards, the P90 is theoretically able to deliver a lethal wound on a protected target at 200m and an unprotected target at 400m if the round hits a vital area. Personally, I would not be enthusiastic about engaging targets beyond 150m with the standard SS190 round."

quoted from remtek's files

so it's not "high grain" in fact the standard .22lr load of 40 grains is heavier than it. giving the FN57 a heavy pistol damage doesn't make much sense either since dispite it's excellent penetration it has little in the way of caliber and raw joules. The 5.7x28mm round is inspired by the soviet 5.45x18mm PSM round which the soviets how now adapted to a burst fire pistol in order to compensate for it's lack of power. The FN 5-7C is tothe FN Five-Seven as the Drotik is to the PSM.

In terms of the game i'd make the FN57, P90, PSM, all those types of weapons which use interesting cleaverly designed cartridges make them "apds only" weapons and give them damage codes like 10L (so they have to stage it up, it is low caliber after all and not forgiving of poor shot placement) and say apds is already factored in. then you just gotta get rid of apds in the normal weapons because it's a bunch of bs and overpowering for most other weapons.

The +2 recoil modifier for the Barrett seems to be less recoil and more a representation of the weapon's ungainliness. Probably was an attempt to have the thing not dragged around and used like a hunting rifle.

As for the Five-seveNC, it's really just a joke weapon. Read on.

The whole point of bursts getting the full +3 is pure game balance; without it, semiauto is even crappier than Shadowrun already makes it.

In what way?

otomik
You add the uncontrolled recoil to the entire burst, because the burst hits with every round fired when you hit. That at least partially balances the system out.

Adrael
Any weapon in real life CAN use APDS ammo. It's called a sabot round anyone who wants to bother can make them. Typically found in black powder weapons, shotgun slugs (rifled barrels), and available in military ammunition.

Overall
The Barrett 121 just proves that FASA did little or no research on weapon prior to printing. It also proves that if they ever did fire a weapon, they didn't remember any of it. Recoil only applies after the trigger is pulled. Provided the weapon is braced said recoil isn't going to add the equivalent of a +2 TN to a shot. That is, unless the person firing it is a little pansy who's afraid of the weapon.

Also if I had a weapon that took a simple action to fire and the first round always hit (well same TN as there's no recoil yet), why wouldn't I fire a 3 round burst? With no draw back and the ability to add 3 to the power and one damage level for the cost of 2 additional round…hell yeah!!!. Why wouldn't you?

So based on real-world reasoning, an assault rifle firing a three-round burst with caseless ammo wouldn't suffer a recoil modifier at all, right? (If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone'll tell me, but I'm just pulling out what I remember about the HK caseless project out of my head.)

Laughlyn: the +2 recoil modifier seems to've been put in place to represent the weapon being ungainly and unsuited for use as a combat rifle moreso than actual recoil, considering it can be completely compensated for by placing the weapon down on its bipod. This is an idea I'm personally fond of, really; recoil, in this use, is more of a misnomer than anything else.

AK404: it's not that it suffers no recoil, but that it suffers only minimal recoil in the time it takes for all three rounds to exit the weapon, allowing all three rounds to strike roughly the same area within reasonable engagement distances.

Adarael: The 5.7mm's tumbling after entry is something that's been PRed way out of proportion. Unless the round fragments or mushrooms, most are designed to tumble upon entering the target, and any dovetailed round will do this. It's not purely a materials issue, and it's not incredibly damaging. 5.7mm, while exceptionally effective for penetrating armor, is rather impotent once it's set about doing any real damage. It is, for this reason, a very specific round that does a very specific job very well, but is ultimately very, very unsuited for general work. That said, the results of loading a Five-seveN or P90 with some custom discarding sabot rounds would just be bizarre and probably useless for any realistic application.

the problem with burst(and FA), i guess, is that its hit all or miss all. No in between. They had to give a +recoil to every burst to balance it out.

I had to house rule some stuff regarding burst and FA to make it more realistic. (Well, we just based the firearm mechanics on Ravenshield, but we all agreed on its level of realism represented in our game, anyways.)

Gah. Raven Shield isn't even remotely realistic. Why would you do such a thing?

uh, well, because its impossible for me to get my hands on a real MP5?

Compared to most games, as i said the 'level' of realism is better than most. And Ravenshield (and all R6 games for that matter) is were me and my gaming buddies got to become friends. Its a mutual thing, you see. Anyhow since i have played the series all my computer gaming life, tell me why it's not realistic (referring to the handling of guns, that is)? Im assuming you know better. With your help, i just might improve my houserules for my game.

To make it simple, where is Ravenshield wrong in terms of gun handling, and recoil? How does real life gun handling works? Your suggestion, arethusa, will be greatly appreciated.

Admittedly, I have a personal dislike for the R6 series, but if it's what you guys enjoy, nothing wrong with that. I just dislike the fact that the R6 series has been marketed as realistic when it's very, very far from that. Raven Shield essentially overcompensates for everything, from recoil that's unrealistically debilitating to a damage model that's ridiculously unforgiving and inconsistant to armor that doesn't nearly do its job to guns that are laughably inaccurate to a movement model that is exceptionally inflexible. But I'm getting a little melodramatic here, so bet place to start is (and I'm curious, myself): what modifications have you houseruled in?

Im probably biased so forgive me, but...

Ravenshield isnt overcompensated, it seems that way because the computer AI are quite unrealistically very capable of calling shots to the head most of the time, making the game quite deadly. We play Team vs Team lan games, though, so its really hard to call shots, and so far, the most bullets ive managed to survive was a whole 30rnd clip from a TMP allover the torso area (that's wearing standard armor, of course, not all of the bullets hit, but still).

As for the too much recoil. It depends on the player, actually, as the crosshair goes up, it is required for the player to pull his mouse(gun) down to control the recoil. With enough practice, you would be able to pump out full 5 shot burst from ARs without problems. Burst fires are pretty stable, unless your bursting with the heavier M14s and FALs, which, again, can be compensated with practice. I especially like FALs, and TMPs (which almost practically has NO recoil to worry about, those TMPs) for close quarters.

Anyway, what we like in R6 that we dont see in the SR rules is when you point a, say, TMP on a targets head at 10m, your suppose to have sorta like a circle where the bullets will scatter around, and the fact that your firing at something like 15 rounds per second ought to give you a chance that maybe some of those bullets might actually hit the head.

My houserule is pretty long though, and adds new stats to guns, so its really not SRish, for me to discuss it here. The basic concept is all range attack gives a base TN of 4 (short range) even if your firing burst or full auto. after the attack (assuming its burst or FA), you roll dice equivalent to the number of shots you made against a TN with a base of no. of shots fired and is affected by your number of success(to reduce TN), the recoil value of the gun(the new gun stat which increases TN) and the range and movement mod(which again increases TN) and the gun handling(again a new gun stat) which limits the TN increase to a certain point (machine pistols are very good at this, as its also modified by grips and gyromounts).

The end result, it made machine pistols and some SMGs better at FA than alot of the ARs and MGs, though burst fires are still very manageable even when using heavier guns. Also, it benefits very fast firing guns (miniguns) since even though the TN maybe skyhigh, there is a decent chance that some bullets will still hit.

Its just our way of computing how much lead actually hit the target. Everything else is computed as is.

AK404
No on said that you wouldn't suffer from recoil when firing a 3 round burst. Some assault rifles out there have enough recoil compensation built in to negate a good portion of the recoil and allow you get 3 rounds on target most of the time.

Adrael
It really depends on too much to just assume that it's a better APDS. There are many weapons out that don't need to use sabot to get the desired effect. A straight tungsten penetrator works just as well. Or a larger round with slightly less tumble, etc. If there truly was an "ultimate round" out there, you'd see it in use. While one round may be best out there, there are other considerations. Cost, restructuring, range, accuracy and not just in a test environment.

Arthesua
That's still a load of crap. Either the weapon is inaccurate or it isn't. If it's ungainly you add a different rule to it. Like you have to have aim for 2 simple actions prior to use or you get a +1 TN for each simple action you do not aim. Etc. The idea that a weapon kicks like an 6 year old holding his dads 12ga crack open single shot shotgun causes you incur a +2 TN for recoil is a joke. Try firing a high-powered weapon. Ungainly or not, it's not going to kick so bad you miss.

Raygun
My comment was to the idea that Fortune and Arethusa seem to think that the first round of a burst should not incur the recoil penalty. If that was the case I can't seem to find a good reason not to use a burst fire. I would get the normal chance for the first to round to hit and +3 TN for the burst as a whole to hit. Allow me at a minimum to hit with a single round and decent chance for the burst. All at the cost of just 2 extra rounds. With that logic, why not do it?

Also just because a round isn't APDS (sabot round) doesn't mean that the round can't have nearly the same effect as it does in the game. Which is just the ability to punch through armor. The rules don't allow it to do anything else for you. So with that in mind there are very similar effects to be had. Almost all military rifles have an armor piercing round and in game terms that's the same thing as APDS. If you look at the 5.56 NATO and the 7.62 NATO rounds, the military does have AP ammo. In game terms it's exactly the same thing.

As for bipods, I don't allow it to count for recoil compensation unless it's properly braced. Like you have bipod up against the curb (or similar non-moveable item) and you're forcing it forward with your body weight. Works well with a M60, M240, M249, and MG3. The only problem there is that it makes traversing the weapon around that much harder. Otherwise I just allow it count as one simple action of aiming when used correctly.

Miniguns
Miniguns are not inaccurate. Look them up. Do you think that weapon that sucked would be used from Vietnam to now? No. They simply do what they are supposed to do. That is they throw a crapload of lead down range really fast. With a 2k-4k ROF you can zig zag across your target and target area and ensure that that small portion of the world is not hamburger, sawdust and freshly aerated ground. The only draw back is the massive amounts of ammo that it consumes.

Laughlyn and Raygun: I've stated this time and time again: the +2 recoil modifier applying on the first shot is not actual recoil; it's just representative of the fact that the gun's massive and a pain int he ass to aim every single time the gun is fired. Calling it a recoil modifier was, far as I can tell, intended to simplify things in the GM's mind, but it is not, in any way, recoil. Your suggestion of a base +2 with an allowance for two simple actions spent aiming is numerically almost identical. Is the mess with bipods providing recoil comp stupid and unrelistic? Hell yes; I'm not disagreeing with you there. But so are a lot of the other firearms rules, and it at least makes some modicum of sense within canon.

Fortune: The reason recoil applies to the first round in the burst is because SR currently has all rounds land on target or none at all (or, depending on your point of view, the number of rounds landing on target determined by damage staging), and a measly +2 to add 2 to power and one to the damage code essentially makes single shots completely impotent. This is not how it works in real life.

Fortune
Logically the first round of a burst would not be affected by recoil. However on that same hand, logically, though the power of an attack is not enhanced by more bullets as it is in Shadowrun. If you fire a 3 round burst and all 3 rounds hit the target you would apply each round against the armor and the body test. You would not lump it all together and simply add to the power and make it one level deadlier.

Arethusa
Right, we understand that. I understand (I'm positive that Raygun does also) that the people who wrote that into the rules know little or nothing about firearms. In essence the rule is bogus. It was simply added in because someone who didn't know better felt it was needed. With a weapon like that (high recoil and high energy output) you simply can't just up and fire the weapon without aiming it properly and hope to hit anything. That and the weapon can't be any more unwieldy than a M240 or M60. That is big, heavy, lopsided and prone to getting stuck on things (more so with the M60). The weapon would have never made it past prototype. If it did manage to make it past prototype it would have been upgrade in the last … 5 years isn't it?

Actually, I'd say a Barrett 121 (or, in real life, its size being equivalent for an M82 or thereabouts) is more unweildy than an M249 (or equivalent) by a fair bit. It's not just mass and rotational inerta; it's also a balancing and ergonomics issue.

Still, I do agree that the rule makes little sense— or, at the very least, little sense in the scope of SR, where no other weapons, assault cannon included, recieve such penalties. And I may be entirely wrong on assuming the intent was to represent a cumbersome weapon; judging by the ridiculosity present in the rest of the firearms rules, the person putting it together may've just assumed that recoil would affect the first shot. Not like that's exactly out of the realm of possibility.

Problem with assuming that damage after staging determines number of rounds that land on target is that there may be rounds that keep going without impacting the target that the rules don't account for. Even if you do want to look at it that way, the core SR rules seem to've been designed with all rounds impacting in mind.

Yeah well, as I said, I'm testing an alternate system for burst and auto-fire that would take those kinds of things into account.

Arethusa
Look the weapons I mentioned; the M249 was not one of them. The weights on the M60 and M240 are higher than that of the M249.

Fortune
Right, me and everyone else understand that it's an abstract combat system. That doesn't change that the first round fired is still effected by all of the recoil (in the game).

The reason why I think it makes single shot meaning less (from weapons that do SA and BF for a simple action) is that you have no penalty for firing a burst. No combined recoil from shot to shot and you only spend two rounds for a good chance of hitting with the burst. You incur no penalty for a firing a burst (in regard to the first round hitting). So with a weapon holding 30 rounds you could pop 10 burst one right after the other without readjusting for recoil and every 3rd round would be completely unaffected by any recoil. Did I miss something?

Raygun, maybe I'm missing it. If I take a standard round like 5.56mm and make a sabot out of material that weighs the same as the original round, though thinner …3-4mm (tungsten alloy or the like). Are you saying that it can't be done? I know it may not worth the time and effort, but it can be done. The round is just as heavy but now it has all the properties of APDS.

There is a rule to counter the all-or-nothing aspect of bursts in full auto. 'Searching Fire', CC p. 103. You exchange the burst-based damage increase for extra dice.

The rules say that "all standard combat modifiers apply." If that includes recoil, then the problem really isn't solved. Sort of a step in the right direction, though.

interesting, sounds a bit like the AP ammo from cyberpunk, 1/2 armor but what does penetrate inflicts only 1/2 damage.

One new AP type cartridge that interests me is RBCD ammo and the more exotic "blended metal" bullets both of which seem to pull off that elusive goal of penetration hard shit and expanding in softies. raygun, i'm curious what do you think about this stuff?

I'm inclined to think that it's mostly marketing horseshit, on par with Extreme Shock. IWBA tested it and came away with the results you'd pretty much expect. No improvement over existing technology. LEMAS responded with plenty of pictures of holes in meat, with someone's fingers in every hole in every picture. (Not very scientific, there.)

Raygun if you take a lead slug with a copper jacket and compare it to a heavier substance (ie tungsten alloy) you could easily make it slimmer without making it longer and still be the same weight.

The point of APDS ammo in Shadowrun (as I keep mentioning) is that the harder substance penetrates armor better than the standard slug. It doesn't add range, it doesn't add damage, all it does is reduce armor and punch holes in said armor. Again this is in reference to Shadowrun.

That being the case, only argument here is that SR APDS has more in common with real life AP than any of this discarding sabot nonsense.

No is confused, least of all me. The point is, it can be done. As I've said already it may or may not be worth your time and effort. I don't know how much more plain I can make that. My original post on the point even said as much. I can quote it for you if you'd like.

Tell me, what's this is? (below link)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m993.htm