I've been playing SR since 1990 but since 2nd edition rules came out, something has been nagging me: autofire rules.
Cyberpunk games are supposed to be lethal but I think the rules for staging damage for full auto fire are very hard...

Instead of increasing Power by +1 for every bullet fired, I oopt for +1 for every 3 bullets. Which means a 6-round burst from a M22A2 has a damage code of 10D.
Considering the number of dice the average company man can throw against runners, it is still deadly, yet it allows for longer gunfights and so contributes to the cinematic atmosphere. Besides, I hate everything that leads to standardization in a RPG and so it doesn't make non-autofiring weapon useless. it still makes sense to prefer a nasty heavy handgun like a Manhunter over a SMG (9M vs 8G for a short burst)

We've been playing that way for years and my players have never felt things were easy nor have they developed any invulnerability complex (far from it in fact)

Apparently meant 8S (7M + 1 Power + 1 DL). I don't see why that makes sense, however -- it seems to me that, ceteris paribus, 3 .40S&Ws are far, far more effective in killing a human being than 1 .44 Magnum.

Still, I'm not saying house ruling autofire is bad, I've totally house ruled autofire in my games. You do whatever works for you.

no kidding. personally, i think +1 power for every 3 rounds is way too weak--realistically, you should soak the damage for each round seperately. there's nothing magically damage-reducing about being hit by three rounds in quick succession, as opposed to being hit by them at a slight interval.

You're right, the ideal solution would be to make separate damage resistance tests for each slug...but problem is it would be awfully time-consuming (imagine having to roll 15 times for a Vindicator full auto burst)

Never mind that, imagine having to roll 300 times for a Vindicator full auto burst with realistic RoFs.

of course. i'm fine with using the current burst-fire rules (well, except for the part where they make it impossible to hit anything when firing more bullets). i'm not sure making burst-fire less lethal is an ideal solution to any of the problems with the system.

If I were going to do anything with burst-fire/full auto, it'd be to break it down into three to ten different attack tests at the base damage. I might consider raising the Power by one for every 3rd round anyway, as bruising/etc. would be more likely.

~J

didnt they do the one bullet one damage roll in SR1?

Yeah back in the day.

Of trolls and there stupidly bullet prove eyebrows

...what?

It si the dodge test that makes fights last a reasonable time.

Once somebody has been hit for more than a light wound (unless they have a pain editor) there chances of making a real contribution to the fight are slim.

And it is only harder to hit somebody with most of your bullets on full auto. It is a lot easier if you only try to hit them with a couple of bullets from your 10 round burst (ie use suppressive fire)

Edward

Handguns aren't useless next to autofiring weapons!

What are you gonna pack when you're trying to go low-profile, a Browning Max-Power with a concealable holster or an Assault Rifle???

Low what? You're not making any sense, man!

No one's disputing the versatility, practicality, and concealability of pistols. A few posters merely had a problem with house ruling it so that they are the equivalent, power-wise, to full-auto assault rifles. I agree. An assault rifle generally should do more damage than a pistol. That hardly makes pistols useless, though, and 9M is still a very respectable damage code.

i can't say anything really...I use AP rules for rifles and machineguns

I'm not saying handguns are useless, far from it in fact: of course concealability is a factor one should not overlook.
It's true that Dodge rules in 3rd ed change things a lot, it is now possible to dodge a burst unlike in the previous editions. Yet I'm always horrified when I think of a 10-bullet burst with a damage code of 18D ! When you hang around with about 7 points of armor (provided you are wearing a 4/1 form fitting armor plus a good old 5/3 jacket)...we are talking about rolling 11s on your resistance test!!!!
I opted for my system (for what it is worth) when we upgraded from 1st to 2nd edition: before as someone said, it was possible to soak an assault rifle burst, but when we went for 2ed we discovered how combat had become lethal...a little too much as far as player survival was concerned...hence the system...it doesn't work so bad.
Autofire weapons are still very interesting thanks to the elevation of damage code (S for short bursts, D for full auto) but a good handgun is still interesting thanks to its high power. In my game, nobody seems to consider automatic weapons as too weak...but I think things get more balanced...don't forget the difference in range: a "weakened" rifle is still very useful to take down people at 100m or more...

hmm, have about one combines searching fire rules into the normal autofire rules? the number of bullets you fire act as searching fire. but only after both the attackers attack roll and the defenders dodge roll is the number of actual bullets that hit calculated. then one stage the damage of the attack from that. so rather then stageing for the burst first and then stage based on placement one stages for placement first and then stages for the fact that more bullets hit the target. should one allow for all bullets in a autofire burst to hit the target or should one allow a max of say half the burst (so to get a 3 bullet burst effect one must fire of 6 rounds)?

i like the count-up-to-highest-success rule for autofire, myself. the only suck part is that you can't stage the damage up with extra successes.

Well, the other sucky part of that mechanic is that it doesn't allow you to cap recoil. It works well as an easy houserule if you stick to canon for the most part, but the further you progress towards realism, the less it holds up. Kind of unfortunate about that one, really, as it's an appealingly simple mechanic.

eh? recoil caps at 10 per pass, just like normal.

The fact that damage doesn't go over D you only have to stage down 6 times to a light wound. Well with the high power ratings from BF and FA just makes it harder.

But what people fail to see are target number modifications
SMG Skill 5

med Range tn 4TN
Smart link TN-2TN
Target running +2TN
Attacker Running +2TN
random cover +2 TN
Part Ligt +2 TN
3 rnd Burst + 3TN
GV 2 -2TN


Final TN 11

If he has to soak DMG 10 S

The troll will come out with a light wound while wearing a Armoured Vest.

The game become more deadly if you forget to use your TN modifiers.
The Troll would be Half way pushing daisies if it was neglected.


with FA I don't cap it at ten, I let it role, there is nothing worse than a bucking bronco.

well, yeah, but the problem we're looking at here is that autofire isn't lethal enough--it's too hard to get a hit in, when you're using full-auto.

edit: yeah, that's the one.

ah. well, yeah.

another option i'm pondering is to apply a flat +2 modifier for autofire. each success you get represents one round hitting; once your successes exceed the number of rounds allocated to a given target, successes start staging damage up. until you exceed the number of rounds fired at a given target, you're only counted as having one success, for purposes of dodging and soaking (of course, the dodge test is modified by +1 per 3 rounds, like normal). the damage code is based on how many rounds hit. this gives you a choice between rattling off a lot of rounds at a target and hoping they don't get lucky, or putting a more limited number of rounds downrange and depending on your precision. i think that if i used these rules, that i'd also have them replace burst-fire.

House rule.

~J

APDS ammo. You can also choose how many rounds you fire off at each individual, so fire up to your recoil mod or till your target number is 7. If you build your own rifle/mg in CC you can keep it nice and concealable while adding recoil comps up the butt. Dont forget to use your second hand for recoil comp or lie in the supported prone position. You can also use a car, desk or whatever for one more point of recoil comp. Now your FA is nice and deadly.

another houserule, i guess.

There is a rule in fields of fire i think...it could be sr companion or cannon companion about using a second hand for recoil comp...we have expanded it to using your surroundings to assist in recoil comp, because it makes sense.

I definitely don't remember anything at all like this in anything I've read (which is exclusively 3rd edition with the exception of the 2nd edition Street Sam Catalogue). Can anyone back this up?

It's definitely not in Fields of Fire (FOF introduced the strength for recoil comp rule). If it were in Cannon Companion, I'm sure I would have heard about it close to 1,500 separate times by now. Anyone have the Companion?

Fore grip (CC, page 35) -1 recoil.

Or they could be thinking of the rules that say you get a penalty for NOT using two hands with a rifle. Or the melee rules same deal. Or too many crack nuggets.

I think I was thinking of the foregrip...but we still use a supported position as a house rule for recoil comp...it makes a real difference in real life...so we implemented it into the game.
It is a lot easier firing an automatic weapon with your support arm on the ground or support of some kind, than it is just standing. Especially when you are firing anything more than a short burst.