I want to make older firearms available to my players, but I don't know how far to go back. Anyone have any ideas?
I am going to take the weapons from the SR canon as the "first string" firearms. I am thinking about making the SOTA2004 firearms the "second string".
My question is, should I even bother with the firearms that are "seasoned" today as the "third string"? And how should I modify the cost and avail?
Thanks,
ed_209a
Full Version: "Old" guns in 2050s
If properly cared for firearms can last for a very long time. Its not uncommon for firearms to be fully opperational 50, 60 or even 70 years after they were built. I've seen early colt 1911s built before WWI that fire like they're brand new, so it wouldn't be unusual to see firearms built today on the streets of SR.
Personally I wouldn't reduce thier cost or availibilty very much. In reality old fire arms tend to gain in value, so long as they are in good condition (and if they aren't you probably don't want to fire them anyway...). Of coarse, thats in a collector's market, but in game terms they are going to be just as reliable and/or effective as newer guns, not counting high tech add-ons like integral SG, laser sites or gas vent systems.
Now on the other hand, if you are assuming that these older weapons aren't always in good working condition then I would suggest some kind of Stress rules similar to those for second hand cyberware and reduce cost and availibility according to how many stress points a weapon has (for example maybe reduce cost by 25% per stress point or somthing like that).
Personally I wouldn't reduce thier cost or availibilty very much. In reality old fire arms tend to gain in value, so long as they are in good condition (and if they aren't you probably don't want to fire them anyway...). Of coarse, thats in a collector's market, but in game terms they are going to be just as reliable and/or effective as newer guns, not counting high tech add-ons like integral SG, laser sites or gas vent systems.
Now on the other hand, if you are assuming that these older weapons aren't always in good working condition then I would suggest some kind of Stress rules similar to those for second hand cyberware and reduce cost and availibility according to how many stress points a weapon has (for example maybe reduce cost by 25% per stress point or somthing like that).
You could certainly do it with some weapons. I figure in 2060, there will still be thousands of cheap AK-47's floating around. That is not to say they are bad weapons, but it would certainly be reasonable to assume that they have a lower cost and availabilty than an AK-97, but will not accept modern gas vent or other recoil comp or smartlink attachments.
Here are some common weapons you could use:
AK-47
M-16
M-14
M-9 (Beretta Model 92)
But, it would not be unusual for most any weapon made in the last 50 years to still be available in 2060.
Here are some common weapons you could use:
AK-47
M-16
M-14
M-9 (Beretta Model 92)
But, it would not be unusual for most any weapon made in the last 50 years to still be available in 2060.
I have a WW1 era .303 bolt action rifle (SMLE) that works just fine.We would treat that like a hunting rifle with a 10 round mag and a lot tougher than a coperable hunting rifle.
For things like the M16 and AK47 I'd take the SR version and lower everything by 10% to 25%, from conceal to damage, price and availability; ranges would stay the same, however.
Jesus.
You've just solved my problem.
I've been trying to figure out what kind of rifle to give a particular character - an ex CIA spook who got proclaimed 'MIA' after one of the ops he was part of went south, and is now disowned. He's got a huge thing for history - lots of history, anthropology, archeology.
Makes perfect sense for his rifle to be a Lee-Enfield .303 with a scope.
(How many of you have seen one of those guns? God, they're great...)
You've just solved my problem.
I've been trying to figure out what kind of rifle to give a particular character - an ex CIA spook who got proclaimed 'MIA' after one of the ops he was part of went south, and is now disowned. He's got a huge thing for history - lots of history, anthropology, archeology.
Makes perfect sense for his rifle to be a Lee-Enfield .303 with a scope.
(How many of you have seen one of those guns? God, they're great...)
Several websites have complete stats for old-school weapons from before the Shadowrun age. I particularly recommend Raygun's site. I don't know the URL, but if you google 'Raygun shadowrun firearms', you should be able to find it.
| QUOTE (lokugh) |
| Here are some common weapons you could use: AK-47 STEN gun Colt M1911A1 |
Corrected
| QUOTE |
| But, it would not be unusual for most any weapon made in the last 50 years to still be available in 2060. |
At least not in the Western world, or not in the hands of collectors or reproduction manufacturers. Now, These guys, OTOH, will probably still be churning out AKs 'till Armageddon. I also figure all sorts of plans and blueprints would be available on Shadowtalk to build your own guns and weapons, if one was so inclined.
Speaking of which, I kinda disappointed that CC didn't have weapons construction rules. Not the weapon design rules that a GM can use to build new weapons, but PC (note, not players) can build existing weapons, with TN# and such. M&M has rules on homebrewing drugs and explosives, but CC only contains rules on building new guns or customizing existing firearms, even after the mention that the Street Sweeper's plans can be downloaded off the Matrix.
Also, keep in mind that sometimes a gun just keeps getting made. There are still new M1 Garands being produced in small quantities, as well as derivatives. Basically just for nostalgia purposes.
In order to last 50+ years a weapon must be very well maintains. Shadow running is likely one of the most damaging lives a weapon can lead. Barrels need to be replaced occasionally based on number of round fired and getting barrels for your vintage weapon would be difficult.
I would allow a character to start with on old weapon but I would make the availability high in game. Although they exist they are uncommon and mostly in the hands of collectors.
Reproductions probably are harder to find one the street than modern equivalents.
Edward
I would allow a character to start with on old weapon but I would make the availability high in game. Although they exist they are uncommon and mostly in the hands of collectors.
Reproductions probably are harder to find one the street than modern equivalents.
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| ...getting barrels for your vintage weapon would be difficult. |
I think it would depend on the weapon. Certain vintage weapons might be the basis for the futuristic weapons in SR and have interchangeable parts.
Finding a barrel for a vintage 1911 is pretty damn easy today because just about every major firearms company makes a 1911 based on the original design.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| In order to last 50+ years a weapon must be very well maintains. Shadow running is likely one of the most damaging lives a weapon can lead. Barrels need to be replaced occasionally based on number of round fired and getting barrels for your vintage weapon would be difficult. I would allow a character to start with on old weapon but I would make the availability high in game. Although they exist they are uncommon and mostly in the hands of collectors. Reproductions probably are harder to find one the street than modern equivalents. Edward |
Actually, some guns, like the AK-47, will last in good working order for nearly ever with just minimal maintenance, and will work for years even if they are abused. That's kinda what they were designed for. You can coat every interior part of an AK with sand and it will still fire for at least a a few clips. And there are so many of the bleeping things running around that they are cheap and parts would be easy to find.
The accuracy will truly suck if the barrel wears out, though, and it certainly will wear out if you fire it a lot with the barrel full of sand. Not saying AKs are accurate to begin with...
The other internal parts really can take amazing amounts of punishment.
The other internal parts really can take amazing amounts of punishment.
Ak-47 were desgined espefically to take lots of abuse. I can only assume that a meduimrated gunsmithing shop in shadowrun has much better computer controled metal shaping tools then are avilable today. Producing and ak-47 is probably fairly simple. However, the Cannon Companion and Shadowrun Companion books suggest that bullet and power technology continues to advance at a snail's pace, but has for some time. Furthermore, the SR3 book clearly states that guns of the same type use interhcangeable ammo. At some point between 2004 and 2060 someone managed to standardize ammunition, that's a far cry from today's world.
Conclusions:
1. Vintaage firearms are easy to make
2. They need archaic ammo, which would be fairly straightforward to make, but would not be interchangeable with modern rounds.
3. They probably have poor accuracy, range and penetration relative to modern weapons, not to mention features. There are exception, hunting shotguns pretty much reached the apogee of their technology in the late 19th century, (belt feeding and such aside). It's still a gun, and hurts, but it's not up to snuff.
Conclusions:
1. Vintaage firearms are easy to make
2. They need archaic ammo, which would be fairly straightforward to make, but would not be interchangeable with modern rounds.
3. They probably have poor accuracy, range and penetration relative to modern weapons, not to mention features. There are exception, hunting shotguns pretty much reached the apogee of their technology in the late 19th century, (belt feeding and such aside). It's still a gun, and hurts, but it's not up to snuff.
Some nagging points:
| QUOTE (Sargasso) |
| Ak-47 were desgined espefically to take lots of abuse. I can only assume that a meduimrated gunsmithing shop in shadowrun has much better computer controled metal shaping tools then are avilable today. Producing and ak-47 is probably fairly simple. However, the Cannon Companion and Shadowrun Companion books suggest that bullet and power technology continues to advance at a snail's pace, but has for some time. Furthermore, the SR3 book clearly states that guns of the same type use interhcangeable ammo. At some point between 2004 and 2060 someone managed to standardize ammunition, that's a far cry from today's world. |
If you've failed to keep up with modern small arms, there's a trend, barring the all the 6.5mm talk recently, toward accepting 5.56mm as a standard assault rifle cartridge. The US and NATO, including for Warsaw Pact countries as Poland and the Czech Republic, all have issued rifles in the caliber, as well as East Asian countries such as Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, and Australia and Middle Eastern countries like Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and even Iran. And I'm not getting into China and Russia, who've been building guns (AK's even) chambered in that cartridge for export for years now. As globalization continues, you going to see more and more a homogenization due to market forces. And if you think the invisible hand of commerce always makes the best choices, think about Windows over Mac OS or VHS over Betamax. Sometimes, the superior choice doesn't work out.
| QUOTE |
| 2. They need archaic ammo, which would be fairly straightforward to make, but would not be interchangeable with modern rounds. |
Actually, there's evidence of rebuilds and conversions of so-called vintage weapons to modern or more avaliable cartridges. The Vietcong converted thousands of MAT-49 submachineguns from 9mm Parabellum to 7.62mm Tokarev, the Chinese recently built a variant of the Type 85 using the new 5.8mm PDW round, and I recently read an article in a gun magazine about some people building a 5.56mm M1 Carbine. If you're building a vintage gun or have a decent gunsmithing skill, you can probably have it use modern ammunition.
Rebuilding a vintage firearm to use modern ammo isn't the same as simply pulling the thing down off your display rack and firing it, but yes, it's a viable solution. Yes, there's a *trend* towards standardization, for logisitics if nothing else, but SR guns of the same class use identical ammo, baring the occsional high powered sniper rifle with it's own speical ammo.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.