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Cthulhu449
Here's a few questions about stock in SR that is talked about in Corporate Shadowfiles but not really mentioned in any new books. Can a SINless individual own stocks? Bearer bonds seem like they would be OK, but without a SIN for you to be taxed on dividends it seems other ownership is out.

What if a SINless is given share certificates to a corp and they want to go to a legal brokerage house? It says you have to have a SIN to do that, but why wouldn't the government want to let you cash and sell these so they can skim some of the profits in tax? It doesn't seem like they would deny you just because you don't happen to show up in the computers. Governments and corps tend not to turn down free money waved in their face.

So many runners in the sourcebooks talk about owning stock so they can do great things like getting info on the latest corporate happenings. Perhaps they have a fake SIN to put these stock exchanges on, but what runner would really want to risk so much cash on an identity he may have to ditch at anytime? If they lose the SIN due to accident they lose any stock that belongs to it. Anyway, I just can't seem to get my head around SINless runners aquiring stock; I see the really good benefits but don't see a legitimate way they would utilize it.
Synner
Most up and up brokerage firms will check your credentials and financial references before taking on your account. This is more to protect themselves than anything else.

There are several different ways of handling this, the most obvious being owning a high-grade fake SIN used specifically and only for stock trading and financial transactions.

Another option is to use the Mob or an offshore holding as a partner/front to add a level of deniability. Or finding a less picky brokerage firm which is willing to trade on behalf of a quasi-legal entrepreneur such as a runner.

Yet another option was introduced on the sly in Shadows of Europe - a shadow brokerage firm specializing in providing just this sort of service for runners... (more on this in upcoming books though).
Ancient History
Naturally, anyone can own actual stock certificates, which is why some runner are paid off with them [Corporate Shadowfiles]
Synner
The problem is not the owning bit, it's the trading bit. You can have a room full of paper stock and it doesn't do you any good if you can't cash it in. The problem arises when no legitimate broker will value your stock to buy if you're an illegal source and the stock may be illegally acquired in turn. Plus for tax reasons and internal accounting, if a legal broker did buy, he'd still have to track the transaction for the records and that means having a legal banking reference on the other end of the pay-off which is more than a little hard to do if the seller has a dodgy SIN or none at all.

With the added potential of insider trading (resulting from simple shadowrunning) the stock market authorities are going to be even more watchful of possibly dodgy transactions and those who profit from them; otherwise the stock market could just implode from insider trading-based speculation.
lokugh
Of course, there is no law saying that you have to use a broker to sell your stocks. Most people do not realize that. I suspect your local fence could take them off your hands at a slight discount (maybe 25% off market). And since neither of you is caring about taxes, there is no problem. A J is likely to pay more for a run if he can use corpscrip or stock certificates than if he has to use hard currency, so the markoff should not hurt you too much.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Naturally, anyone can own actual stock certificates, which is why some runner are paid off with them [Corporate Shadowfiles]

And those are bearer bonds, not standard market traded stocks. Normal market traded stocks cannot be used like that.
Buzzed
Law dot com

QUOTE
A shareholder should have his/her name registered with the corporation, but may hold a stock certificate which has been signed over to him/her.


The question is, Is it legal to sign over property to a sinless person? I would rule in my games that in order to legally own stocks or any other item that governments identify as property, that item must be in posession of a SIN. If not, the property could be deemed "ownerless" and siezed by the government/corporation. Probably how unclaimed stolen property gets handled too. I see no problem with runners owning stock illegally though. Use the fence rules when they try to cash them in without a SIN. They will need to find someone with a SIN willing to fence the stocks, for a modist percentage of course. biggrin.gif

A fun campaign trick I like to use is to use a real life stock and replace it with the name of a Shadowrun Corporation. Use a quick stock price check on the internet to see where the stock level is at.
Edward
The information advantages of owning stock are lost if you don’t have a sin (real or fake). You need some way for the quarterly reports, annual reports, AGM minuets and such documents to reach you. This will require full regestration of ownership meaning you need a sin.

If I w3as gouing to start a stock portfolio I would do so under a dedicated trading sin. What rating do you think you would need? What rating effective reader would you be competing with.

Edward
toturi
Work for the Plueblo Corp Council... or was it another NAN nation? They give you a shiny new corp SIN to go with your stock.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Edward)
The information advantages of owning stock are lost if you donít have a sin (real or fake). You need some way for the quarterly reports, annual reports, AGM minuets and such documents to reach you. This will require full regestration of ownership meaning you need a sin.

Don't forget votting rights. A runner could gain a lot of control over a AAA Megacorp jby dedicating himself to collecting stock. It dosn't take a large percentage of stock to be able to effectivly manipulate corp polic.
BitBasher
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Edward @ Sep 18 2004, 05:58 PM)
The information advantages of owning stock are lost if you donít have a sin (real or fake). You need some way for the quarterly reports, annual reports, AGM minuets and such documents to reach you. This will require full regestration of ownership meaning you need a sin.

Don't forget votting rights. A runner could gain a lot of control over a AAA Megacorp jby dedicating himself to collecting stock. It dosn't take a large percentage of stock to be able to effectivly manipulate corp polic.

That's not really an option, the majority of all megas have controlling interest in the hands of a few people who are not you.

Also, even enough for a spot on the board of a mega is in the billions or trillions of dollars of investment. Remember, the big 10 AAA's have according to (Either, I dont remember which) Corp Download or Corp Shadowfiles about 50% of the GNP/cashflow of planet earth.

Getting a single vote: easy. (if you have a SIN)
Getting a vote that matters: nigh impossible.
Shockwave_IIc
Though it might of been mentioned, bare in mind that there is different types of stock as well.

The one the Joe Shadowrunner will get is the type that is worth real money. He won't be getting any of the "voting" stock, The big boys will want to keep that stock firmly in there hands.
Daddy's Little Ninja
.t
Buzzed
You could prob trade stocks over the matrix by creating a trade account using a credstick that has a SIN. Don't you just love identity theft?

Another way to get around it would be to claim you are a citizen of <insert oddball country here>. And provide your fake electronic cradentials. The company would most likely not go through the expense of an identity investigation, since it would require traveling to the oddball country to do it, and they certainly wouldn't want to miss out on your trade fees, therefore would accept your non-verified credstick.
Arz
I doubt you could really _own_ even paper stock certicates legally without a SIN. SIN's were established by the megas and the Corp Court to keep track of people. The governments were forced to use an international standard not the other way around.

All these issues aside, players should be able to find a way to own stock if they want stock.
BitBasher
Wrong, SIN's were established by the UCAS government not by corps.
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