I've been working on a coutsomized deep diving suit for a campaign I've got going. The Cannon companion lists the LBA (Liquid breathing aparatus) as being rated for 3000 meter dives, yet there's no way a human body can ednure those depths in a flimsy dive suit. The JIM is a mechanical dive suit, but rated for only 600 meters. I've got the write up, sans the technical stats for my coutsomized dive suit here. let me know what you all think, and how much you think the system ought to cost. I'm thinking more then 120,000 apeice.

A MARIA (Marine Amniotic Repair and Investigation Anthromorph) is a deep diving suit rated to dive to 3000 meters. A MARIA is always equipped with a rigger black box, and cannot be piloted by any other means. MARIAs are characterized by having a large abdominal bulge, no head and a waddling gait. The MARIA is has a cockpit, rather then being a worn suit, in the strict sense. The abdominal bulge is the WOMB (Water Operations Manning Booth ). The WOMB is filled with an LBA (Liquid Breathing Apparatus), and the pilot slips into a well cushioned oval space in a fetal position. Electric massaging liners keep the rigger’s body from suffering any aches or lack of circulation during the what could be the MARIA’s 20 hours of dive time.
Due to the long duration a dive may take, and the obvious physical needs, MARIAs are equipped with catheters, an IV drip (with nutrients) and a rating 3 medical kit, all of which run autonomously, but can be controlled by the rigger if they wish. Because of the MARIA’s unique design, its Envrio-Sealtm technology is only compromised if the vehicle suffers a serious wound, or the WOMB itself suffers damage, using the subsystem damage rules. MARIAs have a body rating of 3, as they are at the low end of the body 3 scale. They’re 500 kg, but only the size of a somewhat corpulent troll.
The MARIA is typically supported by a dedicated medium to small sub with facilities for replacing the oxygenated fluid in the LBA, removing waste, and resupplying the IV drip and power cells. Theoretically, a rigger can operate a MARIA indefinitely, but standard procedure lists 72 continuous hours as the absolute limit. Obviously, the rigger sleeps for some portion of that time, and many of the MARIA riggers consider sleeping in the WOMB quite comfortable. A MARIA’s electric fuel cell is nearly entirely dedicated to it’s features, and has little room for modification. The Mechanical arms (Str 12) are adapted from beta-ware troll cyberlimbs, with extensive integrity enhancements. Floodlights and spotlights allow for ordinary sensors to be used in short range, and sonar is the only sensor feasible in the depths.

Oops, two obvious betaware limbs would run one :nuyen:300,000 in the first place. Nevermind all the enhancements. I suppose that makes MARIAs...say, 600,000. what do you think?

Actually, that is not true. The human body can withstand those pressures, assuming you give it time to do so. What happens is that the air spaces in the body increase in pressure to compensate for the exterior pressure. As long as you give it time to accomplish this, you theoretically can survive deep dives. The problems would be cold and breathing, which is what the LBA is for. You would need a heated dry suit to go along with the LBA and take your time.

If you are trying to make a hardsuit to compensate for the pressures, you are probably just going to have to design a one man submarine. In your example, you do not need the LBA. Why? Because an LBA is only necessary at depth because of the pressure on the body. Since you are making a hardsuit to compensate for that, then a normal air supply is fine.

Yep. I'm just saying that it is not necessary for deep diving...not that it would not be advatageous. Your first post seemed to indicate it wasn't possible. Sorry if I misunderstood.

You're right. I meant to say that it;s not possible to go up and down regularly. The pressure acclimation and *de*pressurization nessacary are insane. Presumably, a valkarie module and the drugs of the 2060's can help, but with a MARIA you can go up and down without a problem.

Let give the caveat that I don't know a damned thing about Deep Sea Diving. But, having said that, this device seems a little pointless to me.

It can only be piloted by a rigger, right?

When a rigger's driving, he doesn't have access to his biological inputs, only the inputs of the vehicle he's controlling.

Since that's the case, wouldn't it be dramatically more efficient and MUCH less dangerous to use a drone?

Actually, not necessarily, if you ever plan to use it from the surface. For shallow diving, a drone would be better. But for really deep diving, this works better. For one thing, enough water blocks electromagnetic radiation, which means to keep control, you need a cable attached. Ever seen what 3000 meters of cable weighs? I mean cable heavy enough to not only include control lines, but also heavy enough to support itself? A lot.

So, if this thing is self motivating, you avoid the need for all that cable, which means a smaller boat and less expense, for one thing. However, you are right if you plan to operate it from a sub, then, yes, a drone might actually be much better.

Good point about the EM blockage. You're definitely right, that'd limit the range on a drone, so you'd definitely need a sub or undersea base nearby. However, without the sub, it's only got 20 hours use time.

Like I said before, I don't know anything about deep sea diving. However, I was under the impression that it'd take at least a few hours just to descend and a comparable time to resurface when you're talking about a 3000m depth? If so, does this have the longevity to be practical for autonomous operation?

The rigger book goes out of it's way to note that deep sea drones require cable. This vehicle's primary funtion is deep sea work, such as salvage and contruction. The MARIA is often based with a submarine to continuously resupply it, but is autonomous for up to 20 hours at a time. This lets riggers have a walking vehicle with plenty of good leverage and strength. There's no reason why a a Sub could have cable attached MARIA drones, but that's likely to cause an accident eventually. Heck, aMARIA could have a host of MARIA drones attached as well. Immagine a deep water rigger with a salvage company. Him, five MARIAs, and a support sub. He's inside a cozy MARIA for a week at a stretch, and everything else is attached to his MARIA by cables, while he pilots evenything like any other done network.

<edit> Oh, the MARIa mechanically could stay under for a long time, it's the metahuman occupant who can't inside for too long. MARIAs could go into a facility, like a research station or large submarine. I hope everyone's seen "The Abyss"

If you're stuffing the occupant into a fairly spherical chamber, the liquid breathing apparatus is sheer overkill. 3000 meters depth resistance is not hard to get out of a pressure vessel. About 100 atmospheres...for a 1.5m diameter, 1cm thick vessel...that's only about 55000psi in the shell.

1cm of cheap automotive steel could almost handle that, and certainly high strength (70-75ksi) aluminum could. For a safety margin, common Ti-6Al-4V titanium could handle the pressure (120ksi yield), as could a decent maraging steel (300M: 300ksi yield strength).

There's no need for that liquid breathing apparatus unless the designers are sadists. An adequate steel, aluminum, or titanium pressure vessel could keep the occupant in a sea level-pressure, air-filled environment.

Well, the MARIa's designed to be as compact a powerhouse as possible. A rigger's not aware of their body wle rigging. Packing the rigger in the WOMB with an LBA does a few things. It keeps the rigger cozy, (massaging liners remember? Plus, a fetal position's fairly comfortable) and it means the mechanics of the MARIA don't have people's limbs in the way. It packs the pilot into a small surface area toom, as spheres have the lowest surface area of any object, this is neary spherical. It means the reinforcement nessecary can be reduced in surface area, and therefore, reduced in mass. More mass can be dedicated to mechanics.

Besides, I think a warm WOMB might be cozy, like....well..the womb.

Hmm, aside from mass adding to leverage, the only possible benefit of the LBA isthat it might be easier to store oxygen. is it more weight efficent to supersaturate the liquid, or to high pressurize gas?

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but there should be a health spell that, while sustained, allows the subject to instantly repressurize when going up or down. No crushing on the way down, no boiling blood on the way up. Or maybe just decreases the time necessary by a factor of Force. Even decreasing the time exponentially by force wouldn't be too much.

edited to stay on topic: More on topic, I was also under the impression that LBA was for when the diver would be exposed to pressure. Maybe the MARIA has an exjection WOMB, in case of emergency, and the LBA helps them return to the surface without problems in that case? I mean, even in a hard suit you're pressurized some, and coming up VERY fast might be a problem. I'm not sure, though.

That would be a cool health spell. I'd consider that a major change, probably serious drain, but useful in the extreme. I suppose that makes one wonder if there ought to be a spell to stave off the affects of depth, like nitrogen narcosis for example.

-Oh, I think I'll drop the MARIA's limbs down to alpha-ware. It's a 300,000 difference. I'm sure loading up all the MARIA's arms' ECU with integrity enhancements, and stacking on more str will be fine.

That sounds spiffy. One of the key features of the MARIA is that it can resupplied while still in a dive. A small auxilary tank to run on while the old tank is being refilled/replaced and they're good to go.
<eidt> Besides, an emergency backup is a good thing.

I still like the ejection WOMB idea. It just seems cool.
"Aaahh, my robot leg is trapped under a sunken ship! Power supply malfunction! It'll take too long for a rescue team to get down this far! Eject WOMB! Fwooooshhhh....AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! Splash! Yay!"

..........I'm so bored.

This new diving suit is a really cool idea, by the way.
"How do you solve a problem like MARIA?"

With a thingamabob, a widget and wrench.

I'd forgetten entirely about one thing. Now that we've established we can give the thing 24 hours of air at a pop, what kind of engine will the thing be running on? I imagined a n electric fuel cell, but a fuel cell large enough to power a MARIA for 24 hours would likely be pretty massive. Suggestions?

With a thingamabob, a widget, and a wrench. back atcha!

Fuel cell or battery would be my guess.

Yep, contemporary fuel cells have remained essentially unchanged for 100 years. Lead and sulfuric acid make *nearly* the best possible fuel cell, but they're way cheaper then the best current metal/acid combo. I suppose by 2060 they're figured out something better...somehow.

-<edit> oops, I mean amoung the worst, lead-acid. There are better reactions, but lead-acid is cheap.

Thanks, it's what I envisioned it for. You kinna need a person on hand with technical know how and a pressence to say...salvage a nuclear submarine. Speaking of which, mr. 74, any idea on how much mass it would take to add a layer of lead to WOMBs to protect from the radition of a subreactor leak? I'm adding design features to MARIA, such as "Modular Component" the WOMB is specifically designed to be replacable, allowing costomized wOMBs to be placed in any MARIA easily. The mass of a WOMB nessesitates w winch of some sort though. I'm calling MARIA and WOMB shops "Maternity Wards".

Yes, they say to use the rules for cyberlimbs regadring features, equipment and such.

So I must be asleep. Where does cyberlimb grade enter into this?

~J

Dunno, how many more times are you going to read this thread Mr.Man?

<edit> I missed your post J. I think the cost of mechnicals arms has something to do with grade. I'll dig through my Rigger 3 book and figure out the rpice and attributes later. I'm thinking Body 3, electric fuel cell for a power source. Since using a mechnical arm on a handling 4+ vehicle is more challenging, it must have a 3 handling. It can be as slow as an ordinary metahuman, since noone wants a str 12 athromporph charging around during a salvage. As for rest, I'll put it together after you guys finish giving me your input, which has been really helpful so far.

That's about what I figured, and yes I do tend to confuse fuel cels with batteires. silly chemistry. I figured the electrons and nuetrons would be blocked by the WOMB and MARIA's structure anyway. I just couldn't remember how thick a sheet of lead is reqired to stop gamma particles. Drones probably are best for that sort of thing anyway. How many rads would the 160 kg of titanium in the WOMB reliable protect againt, a few hundred rads? Obviously, it'll have a built in geiger counter. I wonder if a geiger counter counter adds to the sensor rating?

In any case, drones definately are best for high radiation envronments. The probablem is deep water drones must be connected to the master deck via cables. A couple hundred yards of cables get heavy. I'm sure a medium submarine acting as the master system in a drone network can easily withstand being on the edge of a hotzone, and managing a few drones.

Definatly including a geiger counter then.

Ooh, ooh! The WOMB could detatch and remain connected to MARIA by an umbilical cable! Which would allow MARIA to get close to the reactor leak but keep the WOMB protected by several meters of water. Much easier to run an umbilical 10 meters than 3000. Then MARIA can come out and the WOMB can re-dock, and go on their merry way.
note: despite the silliness of adding an umbilical to MARIA's WOMB, this is a serious suggestion.

That's pretty cunning actualy.