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Kanada Ten
I'm trying to think of devices, electronics and similar lifestyle or entertainment equipment or really anything that comes with datajack usage as standard. As far as I can tell, even computers from p'secs to table tops require modification and (almost?) all civilian vehicles require a datajack port be installed post manufacturing. Is there anything other than those listed here? Other than seeing what exists, this list will help cyberlimb'ed individuals determine what needs the modification.

Direct Neural Interface Standard
    Cyberdecks
    Cyberterminals
    BattleTac Master unit
    BattleTac Slave unit
    Communications units, Military, Personal (marked)
    DNI Simsense Chips
    Remote Control Decks
    Rigger Emulation Module
    Simsense Playback Units
    Simsense Recording Unit
    Skillsoft Jukebox
    Smartgun Systems, Integral (marked)
    Synthlink
    Transducer
Kanada Ten
And don't take this wrong, but shouldn't far more things come datajack-ready as standard? After all, TVs became cable-ready I think before the market for cable was at 50% of television viewers (the current 2060 percentage of datajack owners) and the producers of trideos and computers, and everything else are also the producers of datajacks and the owners of body shops. Wouldn't they make everything datajack-ready if not required to encourage the installation?
Sargasso
I'm a little unclear. Isn't anything with ASSISt and a plug datajack compatible? Furthermore, isn't practically anything with a plug on the consumer market in way compatible with a datajack?
Kanada Ten
I'm asking you to name things with ASIST and a datajack plug as standard.
Sargasso
Well, I had always operatedunder the imression that most electronic devices in shadowrun were compatible with data jacks, because I had though the datajack socket had been deliberately designed to be compatable with as wide a range of electronics as possible. Otherwise, it would redce the number of people who would *buy* that peice of electronics in the first place.
Kanada Ten
That's my point. It's clearly not the case or you wouldn't have to DNI enable any devices for cyberlimbs, would you?

I do think you are correct that most consumer goods like fridges and blenders can be plugged into a network due to the whole telecom as a host thing, but then what devices require DNI enabling?
Sargasso
A device in a cyberlimb can be connected via DNI for .1 essence. It creates a permenant connection. Your .2 essence datajack can establish DNI with anything you connect it to, provided the device isn't deliberately designed against that. I imagine toaster's below that particular threshold. I always thought you could have a device in your limb which wasn't DNI connected, and could just jack into it via your datajack. who wants to walk around with a cord connecting their leg to their head (Remeber the picture of the street sam with that very wiring issue in one of the pics in the core book?)? Paying the .1 for the DNI simply makes it internal, and cheaper then getting another datajack.
Nomad
*REMOVED DUE TO STUPIDITY OF POSTER*

I need to read more carefully.
Kanada Ten
One of us is misinterpreting the rules. If you put a device that can be cybernetically controlled into your limb, you only need a router port to connect it to. Only devices that are not meant to be cybernetically controlled, meaning they do not have a datajack port, require DNI enabling.
Kagetenshi
Vehicles generally do not have datajack ports.

I treat that with about the same level of credence as the fact that the typical aircraft carrier carries no electronic warfare gear whatsoever.

Edit: my, but isn't Nomad quick with the edit button nyahnyah.gif wink.gif

~J
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Vehicles generally do not have datajack ports.

I said: installed post manufacturing, not: generally do not have. Which they probably don't anyway since it's expensive and bulky and most people let the car drive itself while they do work or play games, ect.
Necro Tech
Having a datajack port and being DNI are two totally different things. All cyberdecks have a datajack port. A special mod is required to include DNI funtioning. Your cell phone, pocket secretery and sim deck also can have data jacks ports but you still have to type or dial with you hands. Removing the need for interaction with the device requires extra parts.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
Having a datajack port and being DNI are two totally different things. All cyberdecks have a datajack port. A special mod is required to include DNI funtioning. Your cell phone, pocket secretery and sim deck also can have data jacks ports but you still have to type or dial with you hands. Removing the need for interaction with the device requires extra parts.

Interesting. Assuming you're correct (which doesn't seem right, honestly):
Why would a device require manual interaction when the users senses are overridden by simsense data? What beyond a power switch and perhaps a stop or interrupt is the purpose of this? Who would want a device manual controlled when it is interfaced with a datajack in the first place?

Second, it only removes things from my list, it doesn't add them.
Necro Tech
Its just a question of cost. Why would you include DNI in common devices when not everyone has a datajack? I'm sure you can buy anything DNI but the base model wouldn't come with it. Same with cars. They don't come factory with datajack ports unless they were designed as luxury or rigger vehicles from the start.

Also, many things don't have a total overide of your senses. When decking, you are not limp like a noodle. How could you type?
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Necro Tech @ Sep 23 2004, 02:04 AM)
Also, many things don't have a total overide of your senses. When decking, you are not limp like a noodle. How could you type?

Er, actually you *are* limp like a noodle. That's what a RAS override and pure DNI is supposed to do.

As for your question, Kanada, it's kinda misleading. In theory, *any* electronic gadget can come DNI-enabled, by paying an extra 50% of the cost. A pocket secretary, for example, costs 2000 nuyen.gif for the base model, and 3000 nuyen.gif for the DNI-enabled version. I imagine in the game world they're seperate models: the basic version would be the Mitsuhana RX5000 series while the DNI-ed version would be the RX7500 or something.

Giving a definative yes-or-no answer on whether or not a given gadget is DNI-enabled by default underestimates the variety of gadgets that will exist in the 2060s. Heck, look at how many different models of digital camreas are out on the market today, just from one single company! Look at the different array of features that come "standard" on each one!
Eyeless Blond
I guess to properly answer that question, you'd have to ask yourself "What CAN be DNI-enabled?" or, perhaps more appropriately, "What can be DNI-enabled that you would gain some sort of benefit from?" I see pure DNI as the holy grail of interface technologies. You're not interacting through a static physical interface with ridgid inherent limits, like the limited number of keys on a keyboard, the limited physical range of a monitor, etc. You're limited only by what the human mind can comprehend and respond to, which gives you an infinite range of possible interfaces.

So, to this list I add anything designed to be portable: TV remotes, cell phones, pocket secretaries, computers, radios. Just about anything that requires input from a human or delivers output to a human can benefit from DNI, and thus there will probably be some corporation that will build a model with DNI in it.
Austere Emancipator
Datajack plug vs DNI, the way I've always understood it and the way that makes most sense to me is this:
Apart from the obvious On/Off switch and perhaps a few other commands, you can access most controls on electronic devices with datajack links (which is the majority of electronic devices) through the datajack, without manually pushing buttons, as long as you've got a transducer. This is similar to commanding a computer with a microphone -- you think of a command and the transducer translates it for the operating system of the device.

However, this still requires you to actually think of command words, etc. It doesn't allow for simple and intuitive graphical OSs to function very well. It will still take a while to dial, let alone accessing complex functions on a computer.

A DNI changes this. The device becomes an extension of you, and you can control it as easily and intuitively as you can control your hands.

Thus I think of DNI and a datajack plug as two completely different things, and still require equipment built in to a cyberlimb to be DNI'd. If you don't want to get the DNI, use a cymberlimb compartment, run a datajack wire to it, and put a non-DNI'd electronic devide with a datajack plug inside.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Sep 23 2004, 08:31 AM)
QUOTE (Necro Tech @ Sep 23 2004, 02:04 AM)
Also, many things don't have a total overide of your senses. When decking, you are not limp like a noodle. How could you type?

Er, actually you *are* limp like a noodle. That's what a RAS override and pure DNI is supposed to do.

What I think Necro Tech is saying is that you're not necessarily limp as a noodle, although using decking is a fuzzy example. It is explicitly stated that even running hot ASIST you're assumed to be using some keyboard commands, unless you're running pure DNI. It NEVER says 'limp as a noodle'. What it DOES say is +8 to all target numbers. So what's the TN to push a button that you have your finger on? -8? Target number to speak a word? -8? Certain tasks are SO incredibly simple that even if you were to assign a TN to them, it would be so far negative that even with a +8 you can still do them, just maybe not as well as normally. I'd imagine someone forcing themselves to speak while decking would sound half-asleep, etc.

More to what I think is the point, not all uses of a datajack use the RAS override. In fact, almost none of them do. You certainly don't use the RAS override when you plug your gun into your datajack. I would think that when you're operating a simdeck you get a virtual interface, combine that with keyboard commands while you're selecting your program and your user settings, etc, and then find a comfortable chair and activate the RAS override. It doesn't have to switch on the instant the plug hits the jack. Driving by datajack is another good example. (not rigging) It is my interpretation of the text that someone driving by datajack is still using thier eyes to see and their arms and legs to steer/accellerate/etc. The datajack gives them additional information on the condition of the vehicle and gives access to all of the control that you would normally have to look away from the road and/or take your hands off the wheel to operate. You don't lose any motor control when you use a jack to read some data from an offline source to your image link.

edit: Incidentally, it's worth noting that the stuff I said about driving with a datajack is still up for debate, as far as I know. That is my interpretation of the text, but if anyone can quote a passage that explicitly states whether or not you use arms or legs I'd love to see it.
Kagetenshi
I agree that driving via datajack doesn’t involve an RAS override, but your interpretation is false. Check out Removed Manual Controls in Rigger 3: you can still drive a car with no manual controls via a datajack port.

~J
Moon-Hawk
touche
You're right. Thanks.
Necro Tech
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
What I think Necro Tech is saying is that you're not necessarily limp as a noodle, although using decking is a fuzzy example.  It is explicitly stated that even running hot ASIST you're assumed to be using some keyboard commands, unless you're running pure DNI.

Exactly what I meant. You are still awake enough to type, feel people hurting you, realize that your room is on fire.
Lantzer
I'll add a few to the DNI-standard list:

BattleTac Master unit
BattleTac Slave unit
Military hard armor integral communications gear
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
What I think Necro Tech is saying is that you're not necessarily limp as a noodle, although using decking is a fuzzy example.  It is explicitly stated that even running hot ASIST you're assumed to be using some keyboard commands, unless you're running pure DNI.

Exactly what I meant. You are still awake enough to type, feel people hurting you, realize that your room is on fire.

Right, right, and I agree completely. I guess I was pointing out that decking is a bad example, because it's almost assumed you're doing it with pure DNI and a RAS override. DNI-enabled devices don't necessarily have to have either.
Ecclesiastes
Don't Master/Personal Comm Units come ready with DNI?
Kanada Ten
Added.

I suppose I simply thought DNI needed to be added for things like White Noise Generators and Chem Sniffers and so on, plus I hate the idea of needing it for computers or cyberdecks.
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