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kryton
Okay I've got a bit of a disagreement (with a player in my campaign) on the law and magic? I don't have the books handy so I'm curious to see what people remember? With magic ect. what kind of restrictions are there in on say combat spells, mind reading spells and stuff like that? As I remember you needed license to cast high powered magic? Something 9+, the average human getting hit by a force 9 fireball with a body of 3 is going to probably not come out of such an event in one coherent piece. What does everyone remember about law and magic? The specifics ellude me so I wanted to hear what everyone thought?

ooops I posted this in the wrong area...A reader responded that offhand the unregulated max level for a spell is 3? Sounds good to me but I can't remember off hand?

Oh yeah before I forget, if you know the specifics (pages) then why the hell are you not a Shadowrun Commando?
Shadow
IIRC Spells above force 3 are tightly regulated.

And it has to be said...

"I am the law!"
grendel
Yes, spells above force 3 require permits. This goes for foci and spirits as well.
kryton
Where's that listed MITS or a 2nd Editions book like Lonestar?
Herald of Verjigorm
Anything magical of force 3 or above requires a permit. I'll check the book and add the page if no one else has, but it's in the section of SR3 about permits.
Necro Tech
BBB page 305 under Magical Equipment.
Belle Anderson
MitS page 11 States that in the UCAS and CAS any Spell, Spirit, or Focus of a Force 3 or highter requires a permit, doesn't say if that's the case in any other country though.
kryton
Dude you guys freaking rock. My player is a rules lawyer and I'm swamped at work. If your ever in Boston look me up I owe you a beer.
Backgammon
Specifically, the index at the back of MiTS states: "All formulas for combat and elemental manipulation spells, and other spells above Force 3*, have a legality code of (8-Force)P-T" (star mine)

*this contradicts other rules that state any spell EQUAL or above 3 require a permit.
kryton
Interesting. I'll have to look that up when I go home tonight. Thanks for the info.
Zenmaxer
I hate rules lawyers. If I'm ever in boston, I'll help you break his legs...

Some notes... it's important to remember that certain spells may not have clear indicators for their force when viewed by mundanes, and that it's prolly not a good idea to lock the mage in jail for using a force six heal on a wounded pedestrian. Really, legality overall should be handled with some finesse because let's face it, no one wants to be careful all the time... that's just not a lot of fun in a game.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Specifically, the index at the back of MiTS states: "All formulas for combat and elemental manipulation spells, and other spells above Force 3*, have a legality code of (8-Force)P-T" (star mine)

*this contradicts other rules that state any spell EQUAL or above 3 require a permit.

It doesn't contradict, it just means that Force 3 stuff doesn't follow the same rule for determining legality codes. What the secret Force 3 code is, no one knows.

~J
BitBasher
that depends on what your players like in the game!
Eyeless Blond
Right, and police are lax about different things in different places. For example, in Berkeley, Ca they have a really bad jaywalking problem, so police go out of their way to hand out tickets for jaywalking. In general, though, people there don't get busted for marajuana possession or use around there, simply because even though it's widespread it really doesn't do anything. Most other places those rules are reversed.
Accel
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
it's prolly not a good idea to lock the mage in jail for using a force six heal on a wounded pedestrian.

Well, it might not get him jailed to have no permit for that. Yet I hear the word "malpractice suit" banging in my ears when I think of roling too few successes on that sorcery test without proper licence. And probably even with it.
toturi
I doubt you can sue someone for trying to save another's life. For example, while it is illegal for a doctor to practice without a license, he is still protected from suits if he helps a dying man with a heart attack on the street.
Da9iel
In fact, she's probably risking greater lawsuits if she is a licensed doctor. dead.gif
Edward
There have been several cases of people suing somebody that tried (and often succeeded) in saving there life. They only tend to succeed if there is some ongoing injury. I don’t recall any specific examples but they tend to run along the lines. This expert that took 2 weeks poring over the reports noticed a possible way to save me that would not have had detrimental side effects. I am suing the person that had 5 seconds to save me for doing it wrong.

People with medical qualifications are not at the most risk. People that have expired first aid tickets are (people with no medical training at all are at the lest risk)

All people are stupid asholes.

Edward
Kagetenshi
Are you kidding? That'd probably be treated like an unlicensed person administering morphine to someone in severe pain. Force 6 unlicensed Heal would land someone ina lot of hot water very very quickly.

~J
Canid13
If a liscenced doctor slapped a force 6 heal spell on someone, I doubt they'd get in trouble... perhaps not even if the doctor shouted "is there a mage in the house?" after he got through the crowd himself. But an uncertified or unliscenced medical practitioner would get in trouble for doing it. Hell, I could get in trouble for helping someone on the street, and I am a certified first aider.

As for legality, I've always considered force 1 to 3 to be legal and 4+ to be illegal and needing the permits. Course, that's my own interpretation of the text.
Kagetenshi
Itís an incorrect interpretation, but a case can be made that it was the original intention and the text is in error.

~J
kryton
One of the problems with out legal system is that anyone can sue anyone else for anything. So if say someone was choking in a resturant and you gave the guy or gal a himelick(msp?) manauver and broke rib or bruised them badly then they could sue you. People do suck.

(I once broke down and needed a jump. This lovely white trash couple came by and said they would only give me a jump if I payed them $15. Never underestimate the kindness of a stranger or the stupidity of a moron.)

I wonder though if casting a level 6 spell might require some sort of "medical training" like a nurses certification or a paramedics certification or something? It may go to trial but there's a chance the judge could throw it out. They're not going to lock you away and the bail probably would be low. So it would depend on the jurisdiction ect. In Boston Judges tend to be somewhat liberal so I could see them looking a blind eye.
Moon-Hawk
I'm not sure what book this is from, I think Awakenings, maybe Grimoire 2.0, but evidence or testimony obtained through mind probe or other such detection or control spells is inadmissable in court, as it is a violation of the 5th amendment. (That's the one protecting you from self-incrimination)
Canid13
Agreed, it says that in MITS also. And MITS also says that a magical healer in the UCAS must have some form of formal medical training and qualifications, such as midwifery or be an EMT.
Zenmaxer
:: nods :: this is correct. I was just noting down that from a gamemaster's standpoint, punishing the mage for doing a good deed is going to teach the play group bad habits.... like a flagrant disregard for the health of those around them.
spotlite
note - that not being admissible thing only counts in some countries! UCAS and CAS, certainly, but don't expect that to hold water in NAN lands, or the Tir, or Aztlan, or myriad other places. Same for the 'not above force whatever' laws.

Important to bear in mind depending on a characters background and where they are. A shaman from the NAN may simply not think about it being wrong and heal people on the street whether they have a license or not. Won't stop them being arrested for it mind, but its something to bear in mind from an rp perspective.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
:: nods :: this is correct. I was just noting down that from a gamemaster's standpoint, punishing the mage for doing a good deed is going to teach the play group bad habits.... like a flagrant disregard for the health of those around them.

If you're a criminal, that's a damn good habit.

Not flagrant disregard, but not stopping to help people you don't have to. That's why things like pacifism, etc. are flaws.

~J
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