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Joker9125
My current group is 5 people 4 players an occasional 5th and a GM, but their is a very large D&D group on campus and I would like to show them the light (or darkness) that is SR3. The main GM of the D&D group has a pretty strong aversion to SR because of a bad expirence with another group so trying to convert some of the D&D players is hard when he continually bashes SR in front of them when I bring it up. That being said I would like to expand the group and one of their players has shown some interest in playing.

I hear alot of horror stories about D&D players trying out SR and im kind of worried that if he does something stupid and dies he will lose interest. Im hoping that if I can get him hooked he will be able to talk some sense into other D&D players so they will actually give SR a chance. I dont wanna beat him with my GM noob punishment stick, but I also dont want to let him get used to walking straight into a group of guards killing them and the fighting to defend his loot/honor or w/e when lone star shows up.

I think ill try helping him make a character and then explaining the universe to him and espically pointing out how running straight into a group of guards that have guns will most likely get you killed. Im really hoping to get some more people into our campaigns so I dont wanna mess this up.
Fortune
QUOTE (Joker9125)
I think ill try helping him make a character

I think this is one of the most important elements in the making of a good game. I do this will all my players every single time they go through chargen (or when submitting a character for one of my games). Even the most experienced. I like the GM of any games I play in to do the same with me.

I make sure to keep my own up-to-date character sheet for each PC...usually mine are more detailed and accurate than the players'. wink.gif

Going through chargen on a one-to-one basis, in a non-rushed setting has a number of benefits, and no real drawbacks. Obviously it is especially beneficial for new players, as it gives them an intimate introduction to the game world that doesn't necessarily come through when just reading the book.

It also serves to familiarize (or re-familiarize) both the player and the GM with the rules as they pertain to that particular character. If the GM does this with every player, it cuts down on the amount of times he is surprised in-game by a player's unusual use of a power/ability/item.

Additionally, a GM can gently steer the player's attention to certain areas. Maybe an overlooked skill that would fit right in with both the character concept and the needs of the party, or a spell that might be used in ways other than the obvious, or even information on how a certain section of society dresses when they are out to impress.

As a GM, you can use these sessions as individual mini-runs, possibly starting from the time the character's pocket secretary rings (or even before) until the time when the team assembles for the actual meet. If examples are needed for the player to fully understand the character and his world as reflected by the rules, now is the perfect time to throw in a minor combat, or a Conjuration, or a short data-gathering Matrix run, etc. You can go through as many different rules as you want to this way, all the while bringing the player more and more in tune with his character, and how the whole world works.
the_dunner
It might be worth it to just make up some quick characters and demo the combat system for a few players some time. If you've got miniatures and a dry-erase map, all the better.

A quick shoot 'em out between a small team of 'runners and some Yaks at a Stuffer Shack could give the feel for the combat (and magic) systems. If you play up the setting and give the play a real John Woo kind of feel, you could get some quick converts. Plus, the lethality aspect should encourage them to think their way through things when it comes to a "real" game. wink.gif
Edward
Explain the world BEFORE you make characters. There is nothing worse than creating a character personality and then being told it is all but unworkable.

Edward
Wounded Ronin
Fill the world with orcs wearing leather armor and carrying short swords.


No, wait......
heliocentric
QUOTE
It might be worth it to just make up some quick characters and demo the combat system for a few players some time. If you've got miniatures and a dry-erase map, all the better.


I've done this. It works wonders.

At the end of the night the players were raving about the "realistic" damage system and the fact that you aren't limited to character classes.
heliocentric
QUOTE
It might be worth it to just make up some quick characters and demo the combat system for a few players some time. If you've got miniatures and a dry-erase map, all the better.


I've done this. It works wonders.

At the end of the night the players were raving about the "realistic" damage system and the fact that you aren't limited to character classes.
Joker9125
QUOTE (heliocentric)
QUOTE
It might be worth it to just make up some quick characters and demo the combat system for a few players some time. If you've got miniatures and a dry-erase map, all the better.


I've done this. It works wonders.

At the end of the night the players were raving about the "realistic" damage system and the fact that you aren't limited to character classes.

Hmm I think ill try that. Might be a good Idea since their main GM will be busy for awhile with reports and classes and wolnt be around to continually tell everyone how much better a mana/class based system is.
Kremlin KOA
Trust me it can be done successfully, Edward is living proof. The food fight scenario, followed by using supernova next session is a very good PC intro... it eases them in to the setting and adds the complications 1 by 1
joker if you have msn aim or any of that jazz, pm me with the contact details and we can discuss strategy...
Vera53
If this other GM is going to this much trouble to wreck your game, or to keep people from being interested in playing Shadowrun with you, he probably has issues with you or someone whom you are playing with. I would try and appeal to your D&D friend's (and any other's) reason and common sense, and ask them to try something new. It sounds like you need to put this D&D GM in his place a little. Of course do it in a diplomatic way. I have had people in my campus club act like this, as they let you know they play the superior D20/D&D games. However, most players I know don't pay them any attention.

About your friend who is interested: I would just start him off with the basis. Tell him only the pertinent world info to make a character that fits well with your campaign. Only ask him to come up with a paracgraph or two of char background, and start with a basic character. Maybe explain what the basic character concepts are and go with whatever sounds interesting to him. You can limit his selection based on the current needs of your game.

When I have new players enter my game (whether they are noobs or not) I limit character selection to what is needed and fits with the campaign. I help them out with character concept, background, personality and anything else that is useful to roleplaying.

The worst thing you can do is overload a noobie with too much game information. I had a recent experience with this a couple weeks ago, and I know that it is not fun.

Veracusse
MrSandman666
So you say this DM was bashing Shadowrun in front of the other players whenever you brought it up. Did you defend it? Did he have any valid points or where his points easily devalidated? That's your chance to get players interestet right there! They will listen to your arguing with the DM and if you do well they'll likely pick up interest. It's like a presidential debate wink.gif

Can you tell us a bit more about how this discussion has been going?

I had the same problem once (a guy bashing SR everytime it came up). His dislike for the game also came mainly from bad experience with another group. His points where easily devalidated by saying "Well, that is not how a normal game of SR is played. I wouldn't like it to be played this way either and this doesn't happen in my games. It's more like this..."
blakkie
BTW the Common Sense edge is a good way to wrap SR in a noob protecting coating so he is less likely to cut himself while staying within the "rules".
Sandoval Smith
I don't see why a D&D player should have any more trouble starting Shadowrun than anyone else. As for SR bashing, especially if the guy that other GM is a long time D&D player, he should be well familar with how miserable a time any game can be when you've got an inept GM, as well as how even a medicorly executed system can still be an awesome game in the hands of a good GM. It wouldn't surprise me if he's either got some sort of problem with you, or is one of those REALLY scary GMs who is super posessive of both his system and his players.

If you can get a couple of people interested, start them out with the BBB, and have them give a glance at the world, and the rules of the game. I've found what works best when introducing a new system is to hang out with them for the afternoon as they read, and answer any questions that they have (of course, I usually only game with people I already know; otherwise that might be a little weird). Talk out some character concepts and don't be afraid to tell them if they're completly misunderstanding something.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
I don't see why a D&D player should have any more starting Shadowrun than anyone else. ...

Which post suggests such a thing? If you are refering to my suggestion about the Common Sense edge, ummm, edges and their BP costs are part of character creation rules.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Oct 5 2004, 10:57 AM)
I don't see why a D&D player should have any more starting Shadowrun than anyone else.  ...

Which post suggests such a thing? If you are refering to my suggestion about the Common Sense edge, ummm, edges and their BP costs are part of character creation rules.

I didn't properly proof my intial post, and left out that handy little word 'trouble.' As in "I don't see why D&D players shoule have any more trouble starting SR than anyone else."
Edward
The biggest problem I have learning a new game system is when I cant read the rules for myself. Hen I was starting D&D I played 1 session based on advice purchased the PHB and read it cover to cover before the next session and re wrote my character based on what I had read.

When somebody tried to introduce me to white wolf they took me threw the character creation system with occasional reference to the books and I hated it. (3 times).

When I was learning SR I read threw half the magic section while creating my character as well as a large chunk of the combat section so when it came time to play I understood most of the relevant sections of the game (rather than just I am good at this).

Kremlin KOA. I am still wanting to read that night bane book.

If your potential players want to read the books for themselves donít discourage them, donít delay them, even if this means loosing a session. Character is supposed to be more than a page of numbers but for a lot of people if you donít understand the numbers all you have is a page of meaningless numbers.

Edward
Botch
You wonder why the D&D'ers might have issues with SR, could it be all that smug superiority that SR players exhibit when put in the presence of D&D? When introducing players from another game system remember that SR is a complex and fragile gaming environment for new players. SR introduction session should definately keep to KISS. The milk-runs and mats/figures should definately be used if there is enough space and make sure that the new players have good access to rules used by their characters during/before play.

IMHO every RPG system has a different style and this has a big impact of play

In Cthulu everyone expects to die quickly or go insane.
In Vampire/Werewolf almost every PC regenerates so fatalities are rare.
SLA is a bit sick and gruesome death is par for the course.
Rolemaster is so complex that players are all 2nd dan Rules-Fu masters.
In Paranoia you start with 5 backup clones, those first deaths don't matter much.
D&D is a "heroic" system with weak ranged weapons and strong armour.
SR is a "realistic" system with powerful ranged weapons and weak armour.
The Question Man
One of the great things about the Shadowrun setting is the marriage of Fantasy and Cyberpunk. I would emphasize the ďPunkĒ aspect. A Ganger campaign would follow the same growth progression of a level based system. The Shadowrun Companion, The Underworld sourcebook, and Mr. Johnsonís Little Black Book all are great resources.

In a Ganger campaign think of the Gang Leader as Barons, Mob Bosses as Counts, and Corporate and Government Officials as Dukes and Princes. Dragons as Dragons. Monsters, Minions, and Marauders abound. Shadowrunners are Adventurers. Company Men are Knights. Mages are Mages. Adepts are Monks. Etc...

Cheers

QM
Kremlin KOA
then come back into town and grab it Edward, ps session tonight went ok, missed you there could have used you, Troy wrecked the van and you have a letter from the little girl
Little Bill
QUOTE (Botch)
You wonder why the D&D'ers might have issues with SR, could it be all that smug superiority that SR players exhibit when put in the presence of D&D? 

I'm with Botch here - any friction that exists is probably there because one or the other of you is trying to prove that their system is "better."
You shouldn't present Shadowrun as better than D&D, just different.
Present it as an alternative that might be fun to play for a while, not something you want them to switch to permanently.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Edward)

When somebody tried to introduce me to white wolf they took me threw the character creation system with occasional reference to the books and I hated it. (3 times).

Well, there's also the fact that White Wolf sucks. I was pretty surprised that in the EQ section in the back they never have weapons bigger than SMGs or assault rifles. No SAWs, no HMGs, no mortars.


But I ask you....if you, as a puny human, was trying to hunt down a vampire or a werewolf or something, would you use.....1.) an SMG, or 2.) a hummer with a 50 cal machine gun on top?
Botch
And if you didn't want to blow the masqerade wide open which would you use?
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Joker9125)
I hear alot of horror stories about D&D players trying out SR and im kind of worried that if he does something stupid and dies he will lose interest. 

Make it fun while demostrating some of the more exciting elements of SR3 to your D&D players. D&D has magic and combat so show them how SR3 does it, but make it interesting enough that it's more than just greasing some gangers.

ONe of the biggest turn-ons for me for SR3/AD&D was the amount of initial power starting players have. You have to get 120,000xp to be all you can be, although 120 Karma aint nothin' to sqwak at. wink.gif

Give them some mission that will require them to have to think (but not too hard), and toss in a surprise or two, like barghest securtiy dogs (they are D&D folks ya know) and maybe a wage-mage or something neat.

Keep it simple. Make it fun. Oh yeah and remind them that mages don't have to "rest" to get new spells each day.
Kremlin KOA
If I am a human that hunts supernaturals then the masquerade can go F*** itself up the a$$ wit a chainsaw, sideways.
Botch
Oh, right, hunting a vamp is one thing, having every vamp hunt you is something else. Anyway, back to SR.
the_dunner
Personally, when teaching a game to new players, I try very hard to not get into a "game politics" discussion. Don't make constant comparisons, don't preach, and don't berate the other game. If a new player offers an anology or asks about a comparison, explain it in a friendly but inoffensive way.

It's just not a good idea to say, "Yeah, this game you've been playing for 15 years really sucks. Mine's better." That just alienates and belittles people.
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