Okay, it's stated that one can enchant functional objects, like lighters, and that they remain functional as foci. So it's time for the dumb question everyone's been avoiding... if you make a lighter a focus, and take it with you on an astral jaunt, is it still functional? And if not, canonically why not? :: grins mischeviously ::

and in astral space, you can use it to light up those cigarette expendable spell foci.

I was of the impression that active foci don't "come with you" into the astral any more than your meat body comes with you into the astral. That is to say, the astral presence of the focus you're using comes with you, as does your astral body (the you in these examples). When a weapon focus "comes with you " into the astral, it just so happens that its astral presence allows you to kick hoop and take names. Nothing "physical" exists on the astral plane, so I would argue that your lighter, although it may appear as a glowing bic on the astral plane, will only provide illumination so far as it is an active focus.

yeah, i agree. next, you'd have mages enchanting ARs as expendable fetishes and bringing them on astral quests.

Foci do not replicate their mundane properties on the astral plane as proven by T:AL under Astral Constructs where is states that no one knows how to make astral constructs (astral objects which do maintain mundane properties) - and any magician with Enchanting can make a foci. Ergo, foci don't maintain mundane properties beyond appearance (and even that is suspect).

I think that refers to independantly sustaining magical constructs, which is what an astral construct is. From the same technical standpoint you're reading it, if you really wanna get rules-lawyery, while that sets a precedent, it is not a directly relevant precedent.

I think a amusing stylistic compromise would be to allow it to produce an astral flame that has no effect, which would really be the most logical analysis, since foci DO maintain their forms up to and including apparent functionality, but these forms have no properties, just in the same way that a fireball's "visual" appearance has no bearing on its final effect.

Finally, I'm really hoping you guys are right, as I don't like astral AKs anymore than you do.

If you rule that the lighter still functions normally, then it follows that things like an enchanted Pocket Secretary (especially if it's DNI-adapted) also continue to function during Astral Projection.

no, because they maintain functionality without properties. they affect nothing, just have nifty FX. Like you might shoot that assault rifle's clip to use it as a foci for say... manabolt or something similar... At least that's as far as I'd let it go...


More seriously, if you really want, I can go digging for a exact quote, but really there's NO reason to assume they don't, especially as it is stated that form is an intrinsic part of the focus... Before you say that it doesn't matter, if I remember correctly, a focus need not be ACTIVE to be carried along while projecting, and it must maintain the same form to function in every other scenario, so logically, it must maintain it in this case as well.

So the question is... does function follow form?

That is incorrect. Please check enchanting, where it is stated that the form of a function is part of its formula, and that the formula is specific to the shape of the focus. Under the shadowrun canon, the formula is what makes it work, and if you deviate from that, it ceases to function.

And how do you constrew that to meant the astral form shares the functional properties of the physical form? Or even function on the use of foci? The formula doesn't have anything to do with this.

basically this states that for a focus to be activated, it must still be shaped in a way that matches the formula. when it's in astral space, this should still be true. if it's bouncing along on your hip in astral space, inactive, it should still be shaped the same way, shouldn't it? Yes it's a bit of a stretch, but every thing else is shaped the same way, why not foci?

I'm not really that enthusiastic about this, I'd prefer that the lighter DIDN'T work, so that my munchkin players don't go around setting people's auras on fire.

You said it yourself...it's a stretch. As a GM, make the ruling that form does not equate to function on the Astral in anything other than it's physical form allows (ie use that pocket secretary to bash an astral being ).

:: nods :: hehe, okay, let's leave it at that. I still just love the idea of lighting an expendible cigarette focus with your astral lighter, but :: shrugs ::

There's nothing to say that this can't be reflected in the Spell's Astral Signature in the first place, without allowing the actual function of the Focus.